42 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

I am not a statistician but I hope someone, somewhere who is collecting this data at PGI is taking the psychological effects of players into account.

Basically every time there is a Clan vs IS match up, all the IS players start yammering about how losing is a forgone conclusion and inevitably some disconnect, others rush in and suicide and a few more don't even try leaving the other half of the team to get steamrolled.

Let's face facts here, anyone who has been in the military or even part of team sports knows that 50% of the battle is Morale. A Team that feels it is going to win, has a tremendous advantage. Hell high morale is considered a force multiplier in the military.

Currently though IS players just know they are going to lose. First of all, Lore tells them that Clan mechs are Overpowered so even if they aren't they are. Second, the forums are all claiming Clans are Overpowered so again even if they aren't they are.

So if I am in an IS mech during an IS vs Clan match up, why even try because I am going to lose right?

Soon as I say that and admit that, I lose between 20%-50% of my effectiveness in a match.

So at the end of that day, with half the players on an IS team giving up even before the match begins, how can anyone expect to get anything but corrupt data from IS vs Clan matches?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 07 August 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[wwiiogre]

Clan mechs are overpowered vs IS mechs one for one per tonnage. Clan weapons are better, clan mechs are better. Clan Pilots vs IS pilots there really isn't any difference.

PGI has announced a Clan vs IS only weekend coming up. It will be in private match only evidently. Now statistically this could be seriously flawed. Since everyone isn't gonna play, which to me is a mistake. PGI should shoehorn everyone into the data test. More numbers means closer to an average can be gained. Less numbers really is useless.

I feel it should be 12-10 with IS having 3/3/3/3 and Clan having 3L/3M/2H/2A mechs. This will give the IS a number and tonnage advantage of a max of 175 tons. Now after testing those numbers could be adjusted to whatever works. But that seems about right. Makes both sides use every mech class and hopefully would nourish role warfare.

I would be comfortable playing either side in the above.

Chris

[Koniving]

Technically the way tonnage works, a 50 ton Clan mech is worth a 55 ton Inner Sphere mech.

So if you see a 35 ton Adder, you get a 40 ton Cicada or Blackjack if possible.

If you see a 30 ton Kitfox, you get a 35 ton Raven/Firestarter/Jenner.

If you see a 75 ton Timber Wolf, you're supposed to get a Victor or an Awesome. Obviously a double edged sword because one is blatantly superior to the other without some sort of armor limits to give the Awesome its canon edge.

If you see a 70 ton Summoner, you're supposed to have a 75 ton Orion.

If you see a Warhawk, you're supposed to get a Highlander or Banshee.

If you see a Dire Wolf... wait, there are no 105 ton mechs. Well shucks, there's a lack of foresight right there! Not that you need one though as your typical Locust can kill a Dire Wolf with ease. Just get behind it and glue yourself there.

At least this is how PGI stated it was balancing the mechs when they first released and mixed Clans with IS for 12 vs 12.

Edited by Koniving, 07 August 2014 - 05:35 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

wwiiogre, on 07 August 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

I feel it should be 12-10 with IS having 3/3/3/3 and Clan having 3L/3M/2H/2A mechs.

I'd rather see 2l/3m/3h/2a. Either way, we will be able to test both this weekend.

[Monkey Lover]

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

[MonkeyCheese]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

Exactly

I shudder when I see lots of trial mechs on my team...

[Angel of Annihilation]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

You also have the full casual crowd only in IS mechs, where as most of the dedicated player base invested in a least one or two clan mechs. The casual crowd will only have hundreds of matches under belt vs the dedicated fan base having thousands. Skill and experience is going to obviously be a factor in any IS vs Clan match ups until November when all clan mechs are available to everyone.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Koniving, on 07 August 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

At least this is how PGI stated it was balancing the mechs when they first released and mixed Clans with IS for 12 vs 12.

I think they said they would look at doing that. I don't remember them saying that they have ever implemented that.

And I'm not sure how that would work with the class restrictions either. With the Timber Wolf and the Clan assault mechs all requiring an assault mech to match them and still trying to restrict them to so many per team.

Edited by Rouken, 07 August 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[Hobgoblin I]

Another thread of Clan players begging to avoid any nerfs. PGI is running these match ups to collect data...and you are actually asking them to ignore the data.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 07 August 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

You also have the full casual crowd only in IS mechs, where as most of the dedicated player base invested in a least one or two clan mechs. The casual crowd will only have hundreds of matches under belt vs the dedicated fan base having thousands. Skill and experience is going to obviously be a factor in any IS vs Clan match ups until November when all clan mechs are available to everyone.

And then everyone will jump on to the Clan bandwagon. Timbies everywhere! Wait, Timbies are already everywhere.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[DONTOR]

This is why 10 VS 12 is going to be awesome, atleast you know you outnumber them, and that will be enough of a morale boost right there.

[Mcgral18]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

I only had 7 trial mechs in 7 matches, or 7 in 84 players.

Although, of those 84 players, 52 failed to get 200 damage. Certainly something wrong.

[Livewyr]

Monkey Lover, on 07 August 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I don't see how you can get good IS ver Clan data when the IS side is full of new people in trial mechs.

This^

And on top of that, someone who is new and/or very casual typically is not going to invest currency in clan mechs.
OTOH
Someone who is willing to purchase some digital media for anywhere between 30 and 240 dollars is more likely someone who has been around a while and is more generally more dedicated to the game, and therefore more often predisposed to performing better with what they have.

This kind of testing should have either:
Waited until all Clan variants were available for Cbills
or
Been on the test server with clan mechs available to everyone for a couple days. (similar to the testing before the Clan release)

[Hobgoblin I]

Livewyr, on 07 August 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

This^

And on top of that, someone who is new and/or very casual typically is not going to invest currency in clan mechs.
OTOH
Someone who is willing to purchase some digital media for anywhere between 30 and 240 dollars is more likely someone who has been around a while and is more generally more dedicated to the game, and therefore more often predisposed to performing better with what they have.

This kind of testing should have either:
Waited until all Clan variants were available for Cbills
or
Been on the test server with clan mechs available to everyone for a couple days. (similar to the testing before the Clan release)

Well, could you please tell me how many of the mechs involved were trial mechs? How many of the trial mechs were brand new players? How many of the champion mechs you saw were really trials and not owned? I bet PGI could answer that.

[Hillslam]

pgi knows more than all of us do. they have the player data, the mech data, the time-in-game data, the paths traveled by the team during the match data, the skill level of the players data, all of it.

We don't.

So please stop posting that the clans only win due to elites skillz their side and bumbling noobs on the other. Its arrogant and condescending.

Its also wrong.

PLENTY of top level players and teams bought clans but also play IS.

Clan mech customers can bleat all they want about what the reason for the stomps are, and throw up as many words as they can to muddy the water, but guess what? IT DOESNT MATTER. PGI is looking at data.

I eagerly await the salty tears with popcorn ready.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Hobgoblin I, on 07 August 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Another thread of Clan players begging to avoid any nerfs. PGI is running these match ups to collect data...and you are actually asking them to ignore the data.

I own 41 mechs, only 6 of them are Clans. I have a Founder's Jenner, the Phoenix Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt and Battlemaster pack, a Hero Flame, Ember, Heavy Metal and Dragon Slayer. This makes my total dollar investment for IS mechs much, much higher than for Clan mechs.

With this in mind please tell me what motivation I have to post false information about Clan mechs in order to protect them?

Obviously the answer is none.

However, you are absolutely right, I do want to do anything to avoid PGI OVER NERFING clan mechs based FAULY data because lets face it, PGI is nerf happy and has a very strong reputation of nerfing things not broken.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 07 August 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[DasaDevil]

Hillslam, on 07 August 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

pgi knows more than all of us do. they have the player data, the mech data, the time-in-game data, the paths traveled by the team during the match data, the skill level of the players data, all of it.

We don't.

So please stop posting that the clans only win due to elites skillz their side and bumbling noobs on the other. Its arrogant and condescending.

Its also wrong.

PLENTY of top level players and teams bought clans but also play IS.

Clan mech customers can bleat all they want about what the reason for the stomps are, and throw up as many words as they can to muddy the water, but guess what? IT DOESNT MATTER. PGI is looking at data.

I eagerly await the salty tears with popcorn ready.

No, I'm pretty positive you're the one that is wrong. When I can walk into multiple solo IS assault mechs that turn out to be piloted by noob players with my Stormcrow and kill them all on my own, I'd say there is a very generous skill gap there. During the testing phase it happened to me multiple times when I'd go out on my own LRM hunting and instead find noobie assault mechs that have no clue whats going on.

[Mechteric]

The trial mechs also have got to be skewing the data a bunch, at least until clan trial mechs arrive.

[Angel of Annihilation]

DONTOR, on 07 August 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

This is why 10 VS 12 is going to be awesome, atleast you know you outnumber them, and that will be enough of a morale boost right there.

Then you combine outnumbering them with an actually superior IS mechs due to PGI's tendency to over nerf everything and they will be assured of victory.

[Gallowglas]

If you're not staging any private IS versus Clan matches at different Elo tiers in which both teams are of roughly equal skill and in which the teams trade factions halfway through, then you're doing it wrong. Anything else is going to lead to a pretty substantial selection bias.

That said, even if it could be determined that there is relative balance using the most meta chassis available, that doesn't mean that the factions are truly balanced. If people can no longer bring a K2 to fight the Clans, that's still a problem.

Edited by Gallowglas, 07 August 2014 - 09:49 AM.