41 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 06 August 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

And that a pair of AMS will destroy a full 30 cLRM barrage...at least an isLRM20 will get past that.

Not quite. Pair of AMS can probably destroy CLRM20, judging from my 5S gameplays, but CLRM30 or more will get through.

That said, AMS should be widely used. Part of why people complain about LRMs is due to the lack of AMS usage.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2014 - 09:42 PM.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

Not quite. Pair of AMS can probably destroy CLRM20, judging from my 5S gameplays, but CLRM30 or more will get through.

It certainly didn't with my Cute Fox. Might have been a 25 or a 30. Dual AMS Summoner at any rate. Nothing was getting through. He was the last one alive, and I couldn't even touch him.

[Prezimonto]

I've tried and failed, match after match, to pull my IS compatriot's heads out of their rear ends.

"Hey Guys, let's cap their base, and ignore their superior position on the hill. They'll come down to push us off, and we can murder them" Team mostly runs straight up the hill and dies.

"hey Guys, let's NOT fight around the crater where we'll lose due to superior cooling and/or firepower. Let's go fight a running battle in the hills where we can control the engagement space" Every lance rights directly to the crater.

"Hey Guys, let's take the basement on HPG, or at least close to knife fight range and use bad map geometery to our advantage." Team sits in the open and lobs handfuls of missiles at PPC/Gauss clan mechs.

Just, uggg. The matches where the IS actually bring ballistics and play hit-and-run tag with big fat bullets, the clans lose. Rare as those are. We've spent 2 years of poptart meta, where PUG's think it's okay to camp and cower in corners taking solo pot shots at middle to long range. THAT IS WHAT THE CLANNERS ARE BUILT TO DO.

The colonial forces would have lost the Revolutionary war if we'd have been dumb enough to fight Redcoats on an open field. Use that lesson to win as the IS.

[El Bandito]

Prezimonto, on 06 August 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

The matches where the IS actually bring ballistics and play hit-and-run tag with big fat bullets, the clans lose. Rare as those are. We've spent 2 years of poptart meta, where PUG's think it's okay to camp and cower in corners taking solo pot shots at middle to long range. THAT IS WHAT THE CLANNERS ARE BUILT TO DO. The colonial forces would have lost the Revolutionary war if we'd have been dumb enough to fight Redcoats on an open field. Use that lesson to win as the IS.

Basically you mean the Clanners are easymode in pug? Cause running battle is something that is above pug level of play.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 August 2014 - 10:07 PM.

[cSand]

I don't think using the PUG solo queue to test clan vs is balance is very good.

Most new players, and casual, or more inexperienced will be on the IS side, with the clan side likely to have more experienced players and pretty much no new ones.

All it proves is that the people who have all spent $$$ (some at least $250!) are probably better players, or at least have some more experience.

I dunno what the group queue was like today/tonight (didn't have a group tonight) so I can't comment there, but since the clans release, to me at least, it has become more apparent that if you are experienced, and good with a particular chassis, IS or Clan, you will win more.

I have also found that with an IS mech/group you need be more aggressive but also more careful. You really can't afford to come round a corner and face down 3 mechs with "wolf" in their name. You just can't be doing that. Even if you escape with any weapons left you're still a glass cannon after the beatdown

You can't really compare an Atlas and a Direwolf directly because they are so different to play. The only thing they have in common is the weight which all in all we can probably agree really isn't major deciding factor if you're just talking 1v1. Ultimately this game is about wise decision making and judgement

Edited by cSand, 06 August 2014 - 10:11 PM.

[Tezcatli]

So before it was skill. And now it's teamwork...

[XMJM]

It's just plain pay-to-play-mostly-win if you need to pay to get weapons with better range. I was more than fine with my AC-2s before they were bent over and now they have a lot less range and a better "clan" version and I can't UNBUY my mech / equipment after the change to try something else.

Range can be compared to penetration in WoT. If you have less penetration, you can't do damage far.
In wot, there's no way of paying to get tanks which have better penetration than other similar "free" tanks.
Ofcourse there's a prerium ammo which usually has more penetration than the cheaper ammo type, but it has its' drawbacks and you can get them for ingame credits too.

Putting critical things, like range, behind paid locks, is a sure way to milk cash and make the game less popular.

[cSand]

XMJM, on 06 August 2014 - 10:29 PM, said:

It's just plain pay-to-play-mostly-win if you need to pay to get weapons with better range. I was more than fine with my AC-2s before they were bent over and now they have a lot less range and a better "clan" version and I can't UNBUY my mech / equipment after the change to try something else.

Range can be compared to penetration in WoT. If you have less penetration, you can't do damage far.
In wot, there's no way of paying to get tanks which have better penetration than other similar "free" tanks.
Ofcourse there's a prerium ammo which usually has more penetration than the cheaper ammo type, but it has its' drawbacks and you can get them for ingame credits too.

Putting critical things, like range, behind paid locks, is a sure way to milk cash and make the game less popular.

What about putting speed and customization behind paid locks?

Tezcatli, on 06 August 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

So before it was skill. And now it's teamwork...

Also I believe sir it has always been a combo of both that takes it. Or perhaps in a solo situation, skill, and a general awareness of the team

Edited by cSand, 06 August 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Tezcatli]

cSand, on 06 August 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

What about putting speed and customization behind paid locks?



Also I believe sir it has always been a combo of both that takes it

But the implication is also going as far as saying the IS lacks in either. And so far all we have is the claims of a few saying that the whole of the IS players are incompetent while the Clans are skilled and work as a team naturally.

[cSand]

Tezcatli, on 06 August 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

But the implication is also going as far as saying the IS lacks in either. And so far all we have is the claims of a few saying that the whole of the IS players are incompetent while the Clans are skilled and work as a team naturally.

Well that's obviously not the case - and people making those kinda generalizations are not gonna be joining any debating teams anytime soon - but I'd imagine statistically, especially in the solo queue (which is not the place to be making any conclusions about clan vs IS), you will have more inexperienced and new players riding IS mechs... because they're A - free, and B - more available for c-bills

[2500kgm3]

Rhapsody Repine, on 06 August 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

The one, and sole exception to this, was one match (again on River city.. if thats the name of the map im thinking of... the one with the tunnel) In which both Clan and IS mech's faced off inside the 'city' peninsula thats to the North/East side of the map. No one stayed in one spot all that long.. no one really 'clustered' into a ball that couldnt manuver.. it was a general brawl were Everyone used cover as best they could and tried flanking as good as they could.

Was it a landslide win for the Clans? Nope. see below:

http://i3.photobucke...22.jpg~original

Yes we won. But it wasnt a 'landslide'.

Pure, up-close brawl, and the Clanners nearly lost.

Wait a minute there. Let's analyze that, OP.


According to that match description, you played a brawling game where you met in an area with enough cover for the IS to avoid long range weapons while closing into their targets for propper brawling at optimal ranges for IS close range weapons. That means that IS team was not only playing well. They managed to get you to fight on THEIR terrain and under THEIR conditions. They rendered your longer range (a very serious advantage) useless, and you did not manage to keep your distance over them. They played to their best strenghts -close range, front loaded damage brawling- and you fell into their trap as they negated your advantages by using cover to close in, and avoiding damage by exploiting the longer duration of your beams and ballistics jumping in and out of terrain.

It was not "a good Clan team versus a good IS team on even foot" match. Clans were completely out-smarted in that match from a tactical sense (I don't dare to say "out-played"). Clans lost their range advantage and had their weaknesses exploited, while the IS had everything in their favour.

Yet your point is "Clans are not that overpowered because we didn't win by a landslide, Clans won, yes, but it was close" when you should have lost for sure, it could even have been a stomp, with you on the crushed side.


I myself do not think clans are as overpowered as many claim, and I do think clan players happen to be more experienced players simply because of the money entry barrier. But if Clans can face better IS tacticians... and while not allowed to exploit the Clans big damage diferential in long range and being forced to deal with the longer beam duration and lack of front loaded damage against mech running from cover to cover Clans still come on top, it's no wonder most games where the Clans manage to use their arsenal to the fullest end in a landslide.

If anything, OP's post is evidence that people claiming Clans are overpowered may have a point.

Edited by 2500kgm3, 07 August 2014 - 04:59 AM.

[Afro Samurai]

Lost all IS vs Clans games (had about 5-6). They were total stomps except for 1 match where they won 12-10. In 2 of games Clans had 1 DC player - they still won by a decent margin.


On the other hand IS vs IS matches were the best fun I had in MWO since the long time. Sure, 12-2 stomps happened but it didn't feel that opressive as IS vs Clans.

The way I see it the only way to beat Clanners is to abuse LRMs since it's the only weapon system that is better on IS side. In direct fire department IS has no chance.


As for so called "skills"... Saw a situation when lone Daishi charged on 5 IS mechs in Frozen City. He destroyed 1 medium and 1 heavy before being taken down.
Try charging 5 clan mechs in Atlas, you will see the difference.


Outcome of match is not based on skill alone, it's always skill + stats. Average player will always do better in Mad Cat than in Cataphract because the former has better base stats.


The only question is: what PGI is planning to do about it? I see 2 ways:
1. They will nerf clan mechs just before releasing them for C-bills. **** move towards both those who got them for real life $ and to those who wanted to farm them.
2. They will leave them as they are and we will see that 3/4 of mechs on battlefield will be clan ones.

Edited by Afro Samurai, 07 August 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[SgtKinCaiD]

If you want some stats about clan vs is : http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

[Aron]

Sorry but I rellay had to comment on this one!
How can you honestly make such a "one-sided" post, simply listing all the supposingly negative aspects and ignoring the rest.

All the "Clan Players are just better Gamers bul****"
Of course Clan Players want to keep their advantage over IS Players but at what expense? It is in noones interest that there are only gonna be Clan Mechs (Except lights) in the future.

I think the core of the "Clans are OP" talks are that PGI did a good job creating disparity, not giving all players access to Clan Mechs, so that they could built their own oppinion.

I personally think that Clan Mechs are not balanced for obvious reasons, however Clan lights have no purpose in the game! Kid Foxes are a joke and way inferior to IS lights, so changes would have to be made both ways...

[MadPanda]

This thread is not different than the rest. I already made a thread saying that the IS teams are getting stomped mainly because they are playing so poorly. The fear of clans is deep in them and they just play super dumb. It's easy to roll over opponents who cover in fear near their spawn points and bunch up in the dumbest locations where the clans can just come and shoot at them from multiple locations.

[Prezimonto]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

Basically you mean the Clanners are easymode in pug? Cause running battle is something that is above pug level of play.

Yes. I've said it in other threads as well.

The thing is they're NOT easy mode for teamwork oriented play and when both teams have experienced players.

Like I've mentioned elsewhere, I think the PUG queue should go to 10v12, but not the group queue.

OR even have each ELO bucket have a different number, so the low bucket might be 9v12, next heighest 10v12, next 11v12, and the upper tier buckets 12v12 for PUG queue. Then you'd even have an idea how often your being matched up or down.

[El Bandito]

Prezimonto, on 07 August 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Yes. I've said it in other threads as well. The thing is they're NOT easy mode for teamwork oriented play and when both teams have experienced players. Like I've mentioned elsewhere, I think the PUG queue should go to 10v12, but not the group queue. OR even have each ELO bucket have a different number, so the low bucket might be 9v12, next heighest 10v12, next 11v12, and the upper tier buckets 12v12 for PUG queue. Then you'd even have an idea how often your being matched up or down.

How are we suppose to implement that with the mixed queue PGI had set up for pugs? Splitting the pug queue into more will not be a good idea. Do you mean to replace the mixed pug queue with the the 10 vs 12 Clan vs IS only queue?

Edited by El Bandito, 07 August 2014 - 04:25 AM.

[Prezimonto]

2500kgm3, on 06 August 2014 - 11:29 PM, said:

Wait a minute there. Let's analyze that, OP.


According to that match description, you played a brawling game, and you met in an area with enough cover to negate long range weapons while closing into their targets for propper brawling at optimal ranges for close range weapons. That means that IS team was not only playing well. They managed to get you to fight on THEIR terrain and under THEIR conditions. They rendered your longer range (a very serious advantage) useless, and you did not manage to keep your distance on them. They played to their best strenghts -close range, front loaded damage brawling- negating your advantages by using cover to close in, and avoiding damage by exploiting the longer duration of your beams and ballistics by jumping in and out of terrain.

It was not "a good Clan team versus a good IS team on even foot" match. Clans were completely out-smarted in that match from a tactical sense (I don't dare to say "out-played") Clans lost their range advantage and had their weaknesses exploited, while the IS had everything in their favour.

And your point is "Clans are not that overpowered because we didn't win by a landslide, Clans won, yes, but it was close" when you should have lost for sure, if not been stomped.


I myself do not think clans are as overpowered as many claim, and I do think clan players happen to be more experienced players simply because of the money entry barrier. But if Clans can face better IS tacticians... and while not allowed to exploit the Clans big damage diferential in long range and being forced to deal with the longer beam duration and lack of front loaded damage against mech running from cover to cover Clans still come on top, it's no wonder most games where the Clans manage to use their arsenal to the fullest end in a landslide.

Maybe people claiming Clans are OP have a point.

Now this makes sense.

It's not been my experience that the clan fare well when put into the situation normally.

A lot boils down to whether the IS have enough ballistics though.

As it stands the IS lasers need a greater advantage in close quarters combat. So do their SRM systems.
(these systems are still a bit under powered compared to the supreme advantages that ballistic and PPC weapons give).

Clan LRMs should also lose the ability to fire indirectly entirely.

Do that would make Clans clearly superior at the long range fight, and IS clearly better at short range fighting.

Right now the IS CAN fight and win, but only with a good team comp AND good in-game tactics.

It's like fighting with one arm tied behind your back in a PUG queue match. However in organized play the IS should be much, much closer to even up on fights (though very probably in need of some love so they don't have to rely so heavily on ballistic weapons, allowing them a wider variety of viable mechs).

El Bandito, on 07 August 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

How are we suppose to implement that with the mixed queue PGI had set up for pugs? Splitting the pug queue into more will not be a good idea. Do you mean to replace the mixed pug queue with the the 10 vs 12 Clan vs IS only queue?

Yes. They've stated over and over that base faction play will be the public queue fights. Group queue and Mech Companies are to be the more mercenary oriented planetary control fights.

Again, the other plain fact is the IS often lose these matches after load and before you even see a clanner.
PUG players make REALLY stupid tactical choices. Some which are actually decent tactical choices when facing other IS mechs, but they're just a bad idea vs. clan mechs.

Lights that Don't got find the clan mechs and more often die if they do rather than NOT trying to do damage, but instead bait the clanners into a better position.

All while the rest of the team stands in a pocket for Artillery Strikes, and massed clan fire.

Edited by Prezimonto, 07 August 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Unless you're talking about the Group queue, the weapons carried made VERY little difference.

Most of the Clan/IS matches I participated in were very one-sided...not due to firepower, but due to the way the matchmaker puts teams together.

Again, think about this...."Elite Veterans" (people that have just finished their first 25 matches) tend to be in IS mechs. Either still using Trials or one they just bought with cbills. And which side do you think they ended up on?

That's the unbalance I saw the most. Sure, there were "Elite Veterans" on the Clan side, but nowhere near as many. The Inner Sphere "Elite Veterans" were mostly stationary turrets that couldn't unzoom to get out of the way and got stuck on the terrain as often as not.

[SgtKinCaiD]

Don't forget also that Clans don't have bad (locust/commando/dragon) or outdated (hunchback/quickdraw/catapult anyone ?) chassis like the IS.

Edited by SgtKinCaiD, 07 August 2014 - 06:39 AM.