692 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

woooooooooooosh~ Right over your head...

You can't even understand your own logic when presented to you in a single line.

I was applying your logic. I mean you don't agree with me so I must not have taken any classes on these things. So since I don't agree with you you must not have taken any classes on these things.

I mean you ignore basic fundamentals of running a good test. You ignore basic understanding of what statistics show and how one statistic cannot tell the whole story. You ignore that other variables exist and can have varying effects on the data. You ignore that I flat out said clan mechs are better and continue to act like I don't want them touched.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 05:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 08 August 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

I keep looking at the screen shots posted. JMans for instance. The Inner Sphere side just sucked most of the time. I mean terribly. And the one match he posted where they did good...they didn't get stomped.

Nick, that's kinda obvious. If your team does well, you don't get stomped.

Still, the fact that even when the IS did well they still lost, means something.

August 15th is the supposed controlled test date like you wanted, since the matches will be private.
I encourage every single Clanner to SUCK intentionally in those matches if they don't want their shineys to be nerfed. I'm sure you guys are man enough to swallow your pride.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 05:08 AM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Willard Phule, on 08 August 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

And the second test did NOT have anywhere near the same results as the first. That, all by itself, shows that whatever method they're using to gather data is faulty. If you cannot replicate a result, then your theory is wrong. You should have learned that in middle-school science.

Do you have access to both sets of data collected? Nope. Another blanket statement/assumption, then? What a surprise.

Willard Phule, on 08 August 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Because, what's the point? If my data is faulty then any results I come up with will be faulty as well.

If your premise is faulty then so is your conclusion. Since your premise is based on speculation....

[CeeKay Boques]

Why is 12 v 10 dumb? I know its different but... with weight balancing and care, I'm not sure what the problem is. The only other choice is to make the mechs the same. There is not enough creative juice around here to make them different AND balanced. Look at all the ideas. They all revolve around making tech the same for both sides. And maybe they don't need to be different and MixTech is right around the corner. I guess MW4 had it right. Eff it, just give them all cake.

But damn I had hope.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

I was applying you logic. I mean you don't agree with me so I must not have taken any classes on these things. So since I don't agree with you you must not have taken any classes on these things.

What you're doing is called Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

[Noth]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Do you have access to both sets of data collected? Nope. Another blanket statement/assumption, then? What a surprise.

They didn't release numbers, they said the clan have an edge (not dominating) and that the new players being almost exclusively IS with the Clans having more experienced players were important points.

That pretty much contradicts this one that has basically said clans dominate, new players and experienced players don't matter much.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

What you're doing is called Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Again, I'm not arguing to prove the clan mechs are not more powerful, I'm arguing for more data to see exactly how much more powerful they are.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[El Bandito]

Technoviking, on 08 August 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Why is 12 v 10 dumb? I know its different but... with weight balancing and care, I'm not sure what the problem is. The only other choice is to make the mechs the same. There is not enough creative juice around here to make them different AND balanced. Look at all the ideas. They all revolve around making tech the same for both sides. And maybe they don't need to be different and MixTech is right around the corner. I guess MW4 had it right. Eff it, just give them all cake. But damn I had hope.

Same and equal are different BTW. You can still make the weapons differ through trade offs yet having similar capability. That is much easier to achieve than forcing 10 v 12.

Arena match with unequal number is something so difficult to balance all the games I know shun away from the concept, yet you trust PGI to accomplish that? Hah.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Noth]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Same and equal are different BTW. You can still make the weapons differ through trade offs yet having similar capability. That is much easier to achieve than forcing 10 v 12.

Actually that rarely makes something equal. Maybe equal numerically, but rarely equal in actual use.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Technoviking, on 08 August 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Why is 12 v 10 dumb?

Artificially handicapping yourself doesn't address flaws in the game itself. Clan Tech > IS Tech. If it wasn't then Clan teams wouldn't be winning 90% of the matches fought.

Give IS Mechs equipping XL Engines (virtually all) the same survivability as Clan XL and see what happens. If IS Mechs don't die after getting a Torso blown off, I'd be willing to bet that the "poke people that are outside my effective range and die one by one" mentality will be less prevalent.

[El Bandito]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Actually that rarely makes something equal. Maybe equal numerically, but rarely equal in actual use.

That's much easier to balance around than 10 v 12, I assure you.

[Noth]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

That's much easier to balance around than 10 v 12, I assure you.

Yes it is but also homogenizes the game further and that leads to boring gameplay. Also a couple of the funnest games in MP I've played have diferences in team sizes. The original AvP and the hidden are both a blast and surprisingly well balanced (not perfectly mind you) despite team size differences.

Edited by Noth, 08 August 2014 - 05:18 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok fair enough. It there need to be balancing, there needs to be balancing.

No issues at all as long as I can return my Clan purchases for a refund (seriously don't expect to want one but it really should be an option especially since I am now sitting on a worthless Heavy Metal that was killed with the JJ change).

Seriously though, I do hope that whatever balance changes they make don't ruin the mechs. PGI has a tendency to overnerf and to be blunt and honest, despite whatever findings they have, my Clan mechs FOR ME aren't preforming better than my IS mechs so any nerf is going take them from being generally good and fun to mediocre again....for me.

[El Bandito]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

Yes it is but also homogenizes the game further and that leads to boring gameplay.

No it won't. There will be two different flavors to choose from, rather than one clearly strong flavor and on clearly weaker flavor.

It promotes choice, and by that extension, promotes gameplay. Otherwise, come September, 50% of the ENTIRE MWO POPULATION will be playing Timberwolves, alone. Now THAT's BORING.

IS will have distinct shortage of players if Clan are intentionally kept as superior.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Noth]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

No it won't. There will be two different flavors to choose from, rather than one clearly strong flavor and on clearly weaker flavor.

It promotes choice, and by that extension, promotes gameplay.

And I'm telling you that one of those flavors will still be better because different traits are going to be more desired than others.

[El Bandito]

Noth, on 08 August 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

And I'm telling you that one of those flavors will still be better because different traits are going to be more desired than others.

But the difference will be subtle enough to keep the population balance in check. Otherwise, once Clan mechs are all available in C-Bills, most players will jump onto Clan tech, and 10 v 12 will become a stupid idea.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 August 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Prezimonto]

El Bandito, on 07 August 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

More importantly, the average Elo difference between Clan and IS drops were not as big as people claimed. 90 Elo difference is pretty small. That overwhelming 90% victory must mean there were more to Clan advantage than just pilot skills.

Sorry Mcgral, PGI has all the numbers. As incompetent as their balance director is, I have to trust their numbers, more than personal records of individual player. Here is straight from Russ' tweet:

Now, I've agreed with you from the beginning that Clans are still OP compared to the IS.

That doesn't change that the majority of pilots playing IS, play stupidly when facing the Clans. They take bad loadouts, and then try to fight on Clan's terms, because that's what we've BEEN doing for months.

The disparity SHOULD NOT be 90% if players started using their mech's strengths.

I still think the issue should be tackled more from the opposite side: the IS should be given tools to succeed more on tactics than raw firepower (things like smoke wall consumables to help close distanced while under fire). Their lasers should be buffed enough that up close they're clearly the superior choice, much like ballistics. I'd suggest lower heat for the Medium laser, and lower ghost heat penalty for LL. Combine with a damage increase and/or burn time decrease for their pulse lasers.

I don't mind the PPC nerfs coming, I don't mind the ERLL nerf except for the Ghost heat increase.

[Willard Phule]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 08 August 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Do you have access to both sets of data collected? Nope. Another blanket statement/assumption, then? What a surprise.

I don't need access to it. The simple fact that there were no Clan on Clan matches the FIRST test and there were on the SECOND tells you that the results will be different.

So, that means that this round of nerfs is either a ) based on two completely different sets of data or b ) just this last test, which has questionable results all by itself.

I simply CANNOT emphasize this enough. The fact that there were a LOT of Clan on Clan matches means that of course the Clans are going to have a higher win percentage. It's kind of hard NOT to. It's not like the Clan loss for one side cancels out the Clan win on the other.

And,no, I don't have access to the data or the analysis. I don't think it's a far throw to simply assume that Paul didn't bother to take the Clan on Clan results out of his data. It would be very much like the Nerfinator to use information like that to support his position.

[Flapdrol]

Clan nerfs, well deserved, looking forward to more of them.

I don't get what the big deal is, by the time balance is restored the clan mechs will be available for cbills anyway, you got what you paid for, $200 for a couple months of heavy advantage.

If clan tech stays this much better nobody will play IS mechs by september.

[El Bandito]

Prezimonto, on 08 August 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Now, I've agreed with you from the beginning that Clans are still OP compared to the IS. That doesn't change that the majority of pilots playing IS, play stupidly when facing the Clans. They take bad loadouts, and then try to fight on Clan's terms, because that's what we've BEEN doing for months. The disparity SHOULD NOT be 90% if players started using their mech's strengths. I still think the issue should be tackled more from the opposite side: the IS should be given tools to succeed more on tactics than raw firepower (things like smoke wall consumables to help close distanced while under fire). Their lasers should be buffed enough that up close they're clearly the superior choice, much like ballistics. I'd suggest lower heat for the Medium laser, and lower ghost heat penalty for LL. Combine with a damage increase and/or burn time decrease for their pulse lasers. I don't mind the PPC nerfs coming, I don't mind the ERLL nerf except for the Ghost heat increase.

Either way you agree that the tech disparity needs to be brought even with the usage of nerfs and buffs, so we are still thinking the same thing.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Nick, that's kinda obvious. If your team does well, you don't get stomped. Still, the fact that even when the IS did well they still lost, means something.

Sure it means something, it means maybe the Clans landed a better set of Strikes, maybe it means at the end the IS mechs broke ranks, maybe it means that the Clans just got lucky and managed to ammo crit someone in the legs to turn the tide.

It can mean a lot of things. But what it means is when the Clans and IS meet up, if both sides do similar amounts of damage, the games are close.

Which matches up with how the game has always gone.

To be honest I haven't really logged in, in like a month. The Clans were a pretty big disappointment for me, since game play didn't change at all.

And yet people are talking like this is some sort of big deal. When in the end the game is exactly the same, and the same things dictate who wins and who loses.

I'd much rather use the testing in private matches that were posted recently, than this haphazard bullcrap that PGI is doing now.

And all it's doing is causing ANOTHER stupid unnecessary uproar.

PGI is still as dumb as ever. And honestly, most of us are dumb for continuing to buy into this crap and play on the same maps OVER AND OVER AND OVER.