692 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

ThermidorFallen, on 08 August 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

Heavens no, we're not the best and the brightest, we're just superior! Better dressed too. It's the tea you see, it infuses us with moral fiber that no other faction can hope to match! (Steiner gains some moral fiber though proximity). As we all know, moral fiber provides 30% more combat effectiveness than numerical superiority, technological superiority, superior positioning and greater logistical capability. Dual AC/20 Jaegars help too.

The best Steiner ever got was packed full of Davion 'Moral Fiber', resulting in Victor Steiner-Davion, who was pretty badass.

[Davers]

Ultimatum X, on 08 August 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

We've already told you, and others repeatedly why the tests were flawed.

Flawed testing is bad, it leads to bad conclusions and bad decisions.

If something is over performing you need to know exactly what is the root cause, you need clean data for this not polluted data.


What we have is completely polluted data, drawing conclusions from it are pointless.



Here's what there is to show why the testing is flawed (this doesn't mean "clans are fine" it means "testing was flawed".


2) No accounting for ECM in MM. More ECM on teams often leads to wins. Clans only have 2 choices of lights, one of them sucks really hard, the other one has ECM. Most clan teams probably had multiple ECM units.

Actually all the screen shots that people posted showed an average of 1.2 Clan Light mechs per match, so IS might have had a large ECM advantage.

[Vweegit]

AUSwarrior24, on 07 August 2014 - 11:17 PM, said:

100% of people in Clan 'Mechs know what they're doing.

I don't know where you dug up this particular gem, but I assure you:

I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.

[MischiefSC]

The test accounted for player populations in mechs by type in how they are played. That's what it would need to test.

The test was about as accurate as any collection of a limited population sample can be. That it was 90% in favor of Clans.... well, not really surprised.

That doesn't mean Clans need a 40% nerf; just that the peak Clan mechs are a good example of what to balance IS mechs an weapons toward. Is anyone really saying that Clan mechs kill too quickly? No, just that they are in turn slow to kill.

[IraqiWalker]

Davers, on 08 August 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Actually all the screen shots that people posted showed an average of 1.2 Clan Light mechs per match, so IS might have had a large ECM advantage.

The difference being in this case that the kitfox is usually forced to stay with the group, while most ecm mechs on the IS side are running off away from their formation to snipe from a perch (having 3 RVN-3Ls on your team doesn't mean you have ECM advantage over the team with 2 DDCs, since the 3Ls are probably packing sniper set ups and will be hundreds of meters away from their teammates. So your team technically has more ECM mechs, but isn't under ECM cover.

[A X E L]

Docta Pain, on 08 August 2014 - 01:47 AM, said:

Clans are SUPPOSED to be FAR FAR FAR superior technologically. 90% is a little on the low side from The Invasion's perspective. That's why a Binary takes on a Company and can still win more than half of the time. 12 v 12 and the invasion would have been over before it began.

Good points have been made about clans better (non-humanoid) shape and weapon placement (not on hips) and about how that now they have been mastered we see how much more powerful they are... which is what you'd expect from an invasion force that is FAR FAR FAR superior technologically.

The ComStar Guards would like a word with you.

[IraqiWalker]

Vweegit, on 08 August 2014 - 08:18 PM, said:

I don't know where you dug up this particular gem, but I assure you:

I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing.

I agree. The 2 Summoners I saw alphaing 3 ERLLS at 2000+meters probably had no idea what on earth they were doing.


I can understand the implied message, that most clan pilots are vets, but 100% is extremely exaggerating.

[IraqiWalker]

A X E L, on 08 August 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

The ComStar Guards would like a word with you.

THANK YOU. Someone zap that fool and let the precintor deal with them.

I don't care if clan mechs are supposed to be OP in the books, this is not the novels.

Also, the clan mechs were OP against IS STOCK mechs. Our mechs are all Jihad era mechs with C3i units that take no slots or tonnage, and tech that would make the Word of Blake jealous. Our current stable of mechs should be mostly balanced.

This is a multiplayer game where balance is more important than broken OP special test tube babies. That were only OP because they faced tech that was behind theirs by 400 years. Once the IS got their act together they ended the invasion.


Anyone remembers operation Serpent?

[Joseph Mallan]

IraqiWalker, on 08 August 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

THANK YOU. Someone zap that fool and let the precintor deal with them.

I don't care if clan mechs are supposed to be OP in the books, this is not the novels.

Also, the clan mechs were OP against IS STOCK mechs. Our mechs are all Jihad era mechs with C3i units that take no slots or tonnage, and tech that would make the Word of Blake jealous. Our current stable of mechs should be mostly balanced.

This is a multiplayer game where balance is more important than broken OP special test tube babies. That were only OP because they faced tech that was behind theirs by 400 years. Once the IS got their act together they ended the invasion.


Anyone remembers operation Serpent?

No sir. If we were Jihad era... I'd be driving a 180-200 ton Super heavy Mech not an Atlas. There would also be:
Light PPCs
Snub nosed PPCs
and
Heavy PPCs

Which would have the basic Computer Gamer crying cause his PPC is no longer the bee's knees.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 August 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Vweegit]

TLBFestus, on 08 August 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

These comments lead to a slight derailment of this thread, but are very pertinent to the long-term survival of this game.

snip

OK....go back to your ranting about the latest crisis.

Well stated.

The biggest complaint I've received from most of the folks I've drawn into the game is that the new player experience is garbage. They thankfully get to lean on myself and some other vets, at least, but there's alot of stuff thrown at you in this game, and very little information contained within the game itself. They don't get the ability to "tinker" without suffering through some pretty nasty beatdowns.

It's kinda like "Welcome to MWO Prison, *****!"

[MischiefSC]

The clans were total **** in the games lore, a blight on the franchise and an embarrassment to the games developers in hindsight. They were an abomination and if MW:O accomplishes nothing else but helping destroy that terrible, terrible, frightfully stupid, poorly considered and deserving of the death penalty in Kansas concept in BT lore it will make every penny I've spent is well deserved and well served.

IS and Clans need balanced or there will be no CW. You will never have both A: Clans as more powerful, individually, than IS mechs and B: 60% or more of players in IS mechs. Will never happen. Ever.

Clans and IS need balanced mech for mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

The clans were total **** in the games lore, a blight on the franchise and an embarrassment to the games developers in hindsight. They were an abomination and if MW:O accomplishes nothing else but helping destroy that terrible, terrible, frightfully stupid, poorly considered and deserving of the death penalty in Kansas concept in BT lore it will make every penny I've spent is well deserved and well served.

IS and Clans need balanced or there will be no CW. You will never have both A: Clans as more powerful, individually, than IS mechs and B: 60% or more of players in IS mechs. Will never happen. Ever.

Clans and IS need balanced mech for mech.

AND the favorite era to the majority of players I have had the pleasure of meeting. I for one enjoyed them as the bad guys cause my players had to work for every inch of victory. And they enjoyed it.

[Ultimax]

Davers, on 08 August 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Actually all the screen shots that people posted showed an average of 1.2 Clan Light mechs per match, so IS might have had a large ECM advantage.

While PGIs testing was clearly flawed, and bad, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their decision was made on more than the 30 matches or so people posted screenshots of.


(This is a sample size reference, some sample sizes are just born .... smaller than others. It's OK, be who you are little sample size, you'll find a gal who will love you for personality)

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 August 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

AND the favorite era to the majority of players I have had the pleasure of meeting. I for one enjoyed them as the bad guys cause my players had to work for every inch of victory. And they enjoyed it.

I'm playing a MW campaign with some friends this weekend. We're a Steiner house unit, sold into slavery in the Periphery. The expectation is that we'll be busted out and with stolen Periphery trash frankenmechs just in time for the Clan invasion. It's going to be a ton of fun, I'm looking forward to it.

In context of overall game balance though the Clans were bad and the original developers have said as much. If you're playing with some balancing factor (like a GM) then you make allowances for it. The twit with the boated CLPLs gets put in the corner.

For open play or a game like this, or just overall game balance? Clans and what they brought destroyed a lot of otherwise great balance in TT. Clan weapons, mechs and tech buggered so much of what made BT awesome that it never quite recovered.

That I'm happy to help see burned in a fire.

[GalaxyBluestar]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

The clans were total **** in the games lore, a blight on the franchise and an embarrassment to the games developers in hindsight. They were an abomination and if MW:O accomplishes nothing else but helping destroy that terrible, terrible, frightfully stupid, poorly considered and deserving of the death penalty in Kansas concept in BT lore it will make every penny I've spent is well deserved and well served.

IS and Clans need balanced or there will be no CW. You will never have both A: Clans as more powerful, individually, than IS mechs and B: 60% or more of players in IS mechs. Will never happen. Ever.

Clans and IS need balanced mech for mech.

and you can't do that without breaking clans to be as **** as their IS counterparts, you can't have 1vs1 and expect oneside to still be better, so are you going to break stocks? cause putting crits and tonnage back onto clans is the only way you'll achieve that 1vs1 you want.

of course we can't have OP **** about, but why are clans allowed to be mastered with as many perks as IS mechs? why are they allowed to carry as many modules as IS mechs? why are they allowed to field as many mechs and as much equipement if not more than IS teams? because pgi have no coding talent they only know ghost heat bandaids, that's all this "test" proved, that 2x as good is more than 1.

but no do carry on like a paul and keep the hur dur nerf nerf train going. you want cake and to eat it to? asymetric balancing is the only way or a wrecking ball through the whole clan range of equipment for vanilla vs vanilla warfare.

oh yeah and drop the **** straw man of 60% IS players crap. you may as well scrap CW because not enough laio to justify all the davions wah wah. there's clans vs clans for a reason you know.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 08 August 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 August 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

No sir. If we were Jihad era... I'd be driving a 180-200 ton Super heavy Mech not an Atlas.

I meant our mechs are equipped with Jihad era tech.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 08 August 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I'm playing a MW campaign with some friends this weekend. We're a Steiner house unit, sold into slavery in the Periphery. The expectation is that we'll be busted out and with stolen Periphery trash frankenmechs just in time for the Clan invasion. It's going to be a ton of fun, I'm looking forward to it.

In context of overall game balance though the Clans were bad and the original developers have said as much. If you're playing with some balancing factor (like a GM) then you make allowances for it. The twit with the boated CLPLs gets put in the corner.

For open play or a game like this, or just overall game balance? Clans and what they brought destroyed a lot of otherwise great balance in TT. Clan weapons, mechs and tech buggered so much of what made BT awesome that it never quite recovered.

That I'm happy to help see burned in a fire.

Meh... I did a lot of Clan busting over the years, even at two GenCons... I Guess YMMV.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 08 August 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

While PGIs testing was clearly flawed, and bad, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume their decision was made on more than the 30 matches or so people posted screenshots of.

I wish they based their decision on more than just 3 tests held for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and 1 hour respectively.

GalaxyBluestar, on 08 August 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

and you can't do that without breaking clans to be as **** as their IS counterparts, you can't have 1vs1 and expect oneside to still be better, so are you going to break stocks? cause putting crits and tonnage back onto clans is the only way you'll achieve that 1vs1 you want.

of course we can't have OP **** about, but why are clans allowed to be mastered with as many perks as IS mechs? why are they allowed to carry as many modules as IS mechs? why are they allowed to field as many mechs and as much equipement if not more than IS teams? because pgi have no coding talent they only know ghost heat bandaids, that's all this "test" proved, that 2x as good is more than 1.

but no do carry on like a paul and keep the hur dur nerf nerf train going. you want cake and to eat it to? asymetric balancing is the only way or a wrecking ball through the whole clan range of equipment for vanilla vs vanilla warfare.

oh yeah and drop the **** straw man of 60% IS players crap. you may as well scrap CW because not enough laio to justify all the davions wah wah. there's clans vs clans for a reason you know.

Again, don't nerf the clans. Un-nerf the IS equipment.

[MischiefSC]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 August 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Meh... I did a lot of Clan busting over the years, even at two GenCons... I Guess YMMV.

All with a GM to balance, or at least agreed upon balance. Let me put it to you this way - suppose it was a BV deathmatch with 8 players all just meeting a certain BV. Some jerk is going to boat LPLs on whatever Clan chassis will fit it.

[MischiefSC]

GalaxyBluestar, on 08 August 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

and you can't do that without breaking clans to be as **** as their IS counterparts, you can't have 1vs1 and expect oneside to still be better, so are you going to break stocks? cause putting crits and tonnage back onto clans is the only way you'll achieve that 1vs1 you want.

of course we can't have OP **** about, but why are clans allowed to be mastered with as many perks as IS mechs? why are they allowed to carry as many modules as IS mechs? why are they allowed to field as many mechs and as much equipement if not more than IS teams? because pgi have no coding talent they only know ghost heat bandaids, that's all this "test" proved, that 2x as good is more than 1.

but no do carry on like a paul and keep the hur dur nerf nerf train going. you want cake and to eat it to? asymetric balancing is the only way or a wrecking ball through the whole clan range of equipment for vanilla vs vanilla warfare.

oh yeah and drop the **** straw man of 60% IS players crap. you may as well scrap CW because not enough laio to justify all the davions wah wah. there's clans vs clans for a reason you know.

Straw man 60%? Dude... do you understand maths? To match 10 v 12 you need 12 IS mechs for every set of 10 Clan mechs. That's not hard.

House v House balance isn't supposed to be balanced. Just like the last big faction challenge - it sure as hell wasn't balanced, was it?

Imbalances between factions of IS Houses has no impact on the MM, CW or otherwise - aside from weaker houses being pretty well at a disadvantage. Clan vs IS however needs to be reasonably well balanced for population even if skill isn't. Otherwise you literally can't fill matches, unless you're going to have it mostly be Clan v Clan.

This isn't hard math.

As to balancing them... as I said repeatedly, make the TW the baseline. Buff IS mechs *up* to the TW standard. Reduce IS ML heat by 1, drop 0.2 off most laser burn times and increase IS projectile speed. Then to offset the Clan XL advantage give nifty perks (like the Awesome got) to every IS chassis.

That would be balanced.