26 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Just a personal pet peeve. When a mech is legged and barely able to duck to cover already, having it's speed knocked down to 15 kph because some twit is streaming lrms5s at it is pure, unadulterated, bullcrap. Makes no sense, the mech is already screwed enough at this point, who the heck actually think stun lock is a good idea?

[AlexEss]

just be glad we do not have knock-down or that leg could send you flat.. then they do not even need LRM5´s

[Prezimonto]

I agree, if the reason knockdown was removed was stun lock problems, then why does getting legged also still cause this. The movement decrease alone is rough.

This is also a problem that massively affects smaller mechs more than larger mechs. Combined with the high alpha gameplay and perfect convergence it's one reason people don't like playing light mechs.... one hit and you're almost done, and getting hit in the leg isn't all that hard.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prezimonto, on 08 August 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

I agree, if the reason knockdown was removed was stun lock problems, then why does getting legged also still cause this. The movement decrease alone is rough.

This is also a problem that massively affects smaller mechs more than larger mechs. Combined with the high alpha gameplay and perfect convergence it's one reason people don't like playing light mechs.... one hit and you're almost done, and getting hit in the leg isn't all that hard.

i do think there should be a 5-10 kph increase in speed for every weight class. a legged Centurion should have some small chance of escaping a Direwolf.

[Alistair Winter]

Prezimonto, on 08 August 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

I agree, if the reason knockdown was removed was stun lock problems, then why does getting legged also still cause this. The movement decrease alone is rough.

Knockdown was removed for several reasons, and you could implement knockdown without making it a huge factor. It's always going to be a sliding scale, where one extreme would be to have knockdown happen every time someone barely touched each other, and the other extreme would be to let knockdown happens only if someone is crashing at a combined speed of 300 km/h. Some point in the middle there's probably a golden mean that would result in fun gameplay, while punishing bad light pilots who crash into enemy mechs all the time.

Prezimonto, on 08 August 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

This is also a problem that massively affects smaller mechs more than larger mechs. Combined with the high alpha gameplay and perfect convergence it's one reason people don't like playing light mechs.... one hit and you're almost done, and getting hit in the leg isn't all that hard.

Yeah, I'd like to see the arbitrary limit of 40 kph removed. Why is that limit the same for a light mech with a max speed of 170 kph and an assault mech with a max speed of 80 kph?

Make it half, without the 40 kph limit. Let light mechs limp to cover in 75-80 kph, and legging won't be an automatic death sentence, like it is now.

[Prezimonto]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 August 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

i do think there should be a 5-10 kph increase in speed for every weight class. a legged Centurion should have some small chance of escaping a Direwolf.

I could live with that. 40 for assaults, 50 for heavies, 60 for mediums, and 70 for light mechs upon being legged?

It still makes a light mech trackable, but wouldn't make taking a leg off an automatic death sentence. IF that happened, I could probably live with the "damage drops your speed" rule, if instead of automatically going to 15 it cut your speed in half again.

So an assault that's legged would go 20, heavy 25, medium 30, and light 35.

[Ph30nix]

hehe anyone remmeber MW2 where if you lost a leg your mech could fall over and you couldnt move at all.

unless you had JJ then you could just jet around like a rocket for awhile.

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

um.. no offense, but how quick can you run if someone broke your leg?

are we looking to ignore real world physics just so you can have fun? it's that kind of thinking that turned this game into what it is.

[Prezimonto]

Alistair Winter, on 08 August 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Knockdown was removed for several reasons, and you could implement knockdown without making it a huge factor. It's always going to be a sliding scale, where one extreme would be to have knockdown happen every time someone barely touched each other, and the other extreme would be to let knockdown happens only if someone is crashing at a combined speed of 300 km/h. Some point in the middle there's probably a golden mean that would result in fun gameplay, while punishing bad light pilots who crash into enemy mechs all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVED knockdowns. If they're implemented well, without warping and with damage for both parties they'd be a lot of fun, and a tactical choice.

I agree tuning them so they're unlikely unless certain levels of force are in play would be good. What I'd like to see is every mech's gyro receive a rating, and for it to knocked over you need to overcome it's stabilization rating. Certain mechs (like the Dragon) could be balanced through a more stable gyro. I would even suggest that mechs without JJ, in general, should get a higher gyro rating that mechs with JJ.

That would make instigating knockdowns an index of mass, velocity, armor(need to be able to take a few hits), and gyro rating (don't want to both fall over if you can help it). The Dragon is, rightfully, positioned in a great place for this. Big enough to take hits, fast enough to catch mechs, enough mass that you hit like a truck, and (hopefully) a big enough gyro that you don't always fall over yourself.

Other mechs that should be good at it: 50 and 55ton mediums with big engines and no JJ available. Kintaro, Hunchback, Centurion, some Trebuchets, some Thunderbolts, Awesome 9m/PB and Victors (with HUGE engines). Oh look, a list of mechs that are normally AWFUL. If something is good, leave it with a lower gyro (I'm looking at you Stormcrow).

[Alistair Winter]

BaronBastardKiller, on 08 August 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

um.. no offense, but how quick can you run if someone broke your leg?
are we looking to ignore real world physics just so you can have fun? it's that kind of thinking that turned this game into what it is.

If someone destroyed my leg with some kind of ballistic weapon or missile, I imagine I would go into shock and bleed to death or have some kind of cardiac arrest within a minute. Are we basing this game on human anatomy now?

When a leg is 'destroyed' in this game, it's just some arbitrary amount of punishment that reduces its capacity. It's not being blown clean off. In fact, it's impossible to completely destroy a leg in this game, unlike MW2. Arms will fly off, but legs will somehow miraculously always stay attached and in good enough shape that the mech can walk on it.

Yes, we are ignoring real world physics. This is not a simulator. Big stompy robot warfare, if done realistically, would not be anything like Battletech.

[The Dreaded Baron B Killer]

Alistair Winter, on 08 August 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

If someone destroyed my leg with some kind of ballistic weapon or missile, I imagine I would go into shock and bleed to death or have some kind of cardiac arrest within a minute. Are we basing this game on human anatomy now?

When a leg is 'destroyed' in this game, it's just some arbitrary amount of punishment that reduces its capacity. It's not being blown clean off. In fact, it's impossible to completely destroy a leg in this game, unlike MW2. Arms will fly off, but legs will somehow miraculously always stay attached and in good enough shape that the mech can walk on it.

Yes, we are ignoring real world physics. This is not a simulator. Big stompy robot warfare, if done realistically, would not be anything like Battletech.

I love how you IGNORED my question of broken and put in someone shooting your leg with a Ballistics or a missile....

mechs have Legs... and move like a person... so like it or not, it is following a support structure like that of the human anatomy.

the leg isn't blown off. but the motor systems in the leg are destroyed meaning the leg is no longer able to function or move properly, this allows the mech to "limp", since if it lost its leg, it would not be able to walk AT ALL, and would probably keel over if you torso twisted shifting the weight around....

so wait... Battletech ignores real world physics?

oh man.. you're gonna get some responses from the hardcore guys here....

[Reno Blade]

Legged = limited to what? 30% forward speed cap at 40kph?

They added it, so light mechs would not run away with 40kph speed from a slow Atlas at 600 meters

[General Taskeen]

MW4 Mek Tek team did it better for sure. PGI thought their own idea was good, but that was there... position at the time.



That was leg damage just with MASC you just limp around with a damaged leg, but the point being if someone hit you in the leg or whatever you didn't go slower for no reason like MWO.

[EyeOne]

It might make sense for larger LRM racks and some ballistics to slow you down with a busted leg. But what really bugs me when a single Medium Laser hits me and I slow to 15kph. That makes no logical or physical sense at all.

But if they canned the entire mechanic it wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Edited by EyeOne, 08 August 2014 - 07:28 AM.

[Sandslice]

BaronBastardKiller, on 08 August 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

um.. no offense, but how quick can you run if someone broke your leg?

are we looking to ignore real world physics just so you can have fun? it's that kind of thinking that turned this game into what it is.

"Leg destruction" in this game = "hip actuator is crit out" in TT, in terms of effects on your mobility. That's where the half comes from; the 40kph is arbitrary, and mainly exists to nerf lights that typically take 8x or 8.5x engines (and could still outrun heavies at half speed because of it.)

The 15kph "hit stun" references the actual effect of TT leg destruction - minimising the 'Mech's mobility.

It could be worse: it could be the way previous games handled leg destruction: effective immobility outright.

[YueFei]

Getting hit by anything shouldn't slow you to 15 kph.

You should be slowed proportionally to the impulse of the weaponry hitting you.

Getting grazed by a laser or a single MG bullet shouldn't bring you to a crawl the same way that getting hit by an AC20 does.

And it really shouldn't last 5 seconds. Weapons recycle faster than that. The slowdown should only last 1 second, and then you can start accelerating back up to your top legged speed again.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 August 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Just a personal pet peeve. When a mech is legged and barely able to duck to cover already, having it's speed knocked down to 15 kph because some twit is streaming lrms5s at it is pure, unadulterated, bullcrap. Makes no sense, the mech is already screwed enough at this point, who the heck actually think stun lock is a good idea?

I complained about this ages ago... back in Open Beta... when there was discussion about this feature.

Apparently, people didn't catch on and never thought how "difficult" (I mean this in ultra-sarcastic tones) it was to shoot a Light mech going @ 75kph (at the time).

Stun lock literally makes the whole thing worse... literally lowering TTK by design. You can thank this person...

Name Tag said:

Hello, My Name Is
Paul Inouye

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 August 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Just a personal pet peeve. When a mech is legged and barely able to duck to cover already, having it's speed knocked down to 15 kph because some twit is streaming lrms5s at it is pure, unadulterated, bullcrap. Makes no sense, the mech is already screwed enough at this point, who the heck actually think stun lock is a good idea?

It's called adding insult to injury. I also don't think it's just LRM5s. It's actually a mad race to get the kill.

I actually do worse. I ask the team to delimb my legging victims before killing them.

< I know, I know. I am a horrible person. >

[Mystere]

Ph30nix, on 08 August 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

hehe anyone remmeber MW2 where if you lost a leg your mech could fall over and you couldnt move at all.

I remember that very well. My "better" half used to leg me, then danced around for a while before the kill. It's probably the reason why I do what I mentioned above.

Edited by Mystere, 08 August 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Dawnstealer]

I always felt like it should be more like piloting check.

Stick with me, here: have you ever played a FPS where your character was drunk or severely damaged and they kind of stumble around, and you have to control them, but they over-compensate or undercompensate and then start wobbling all over the place? I feel like getting legged should be like that. You slow down, but you also have to keep your mech upright.

You could probably straight-line it relatively easily, enough to find cover. But 15kph, and I mostly pilot Lights, you might as well just have the mech blow up when it gets legged...

Mystere, on 08 August 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

It's called adding insult to injury. I also don't think it's just LRM5s. It's actually a mad race to get the kill.

I actually do worse. I ask the team to delimb my legging victims before killing them.

< I know, I know. I am a horrible person. >

I do something that might be worse. Being a Light pilot, I'll go hunting for an Assault or Heavy lagging near the back. Then I'll leg them. Then I'll leave.

And they're left to hobble to the front lines on that one leg.