23 replies to this topic

[Clydewinder]

Matchmaker should be building matches by tonnage.

IS teams should be balanced by straight tonnage.

Clan teams should have each mech tonnage multiplied by 1.1 - i.e. 50 ton Nova counts as 55 tons, 100 ton Direwhale counts as 110 tons. If 1.1 isn't enough then go 1.25

12 vs 10 will never work as it will result in instant loss for Clan on all conquest games.

Balance by tonnage!

So simple! ARGH!

[101011]

Yes, even though I can and have soloed an Atlas in a Nova. Tonnage is not as easy as you think.

[El Bandito]

100 ton DW is much much more deadly than a 100 ton Atlas. Hardpoints are major factor.

[BourbonFaucet]

Clydewinder, on 06 August 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

12 vs 10 will never work as it will result in instant loss for Clan on all conquest games.

With the current selection of clan 'mechs, yes.

But you know what's funny? If they add the Firemoth, the clans suddenly have the fastest light in the game. Not even a max engined XL equipped locust can catch one if I remember right.

3 Firemoths to cap points might become a thing.

Edited by Techorse, 06 August 2014 - 08:18 PM.

[Clydewinder]

101011, on 06 August 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Yes, even though I can and have soloed an Atlas in a Nova. Tonnage is not as easy as you think.

I would imagine at this point in the game, every mech has solo'd every other mech at some point or another.

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

100 ton DW is much much more deadly than a 100 ton Atlas. Hardpoints are major factor.

That's why the matchmaker would qualify a 100 ton DW as 110 or 125 tons for match-up.

[El Bandito]

Clydewinder, on 06 August 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

That's why the matchmaker would qualify a 100 ton DW as 110 or 125 tons for match-up.

But that's blanket adjustment. Not all classes between Clans and IS have such big disparity.

[Koniks]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

But that's blanket adjustment. Not all classes between Clans and IS have such big disparity.

True. The SCR, TBR, and DWF are clearly better than their I.S. counterparts of the same weight. The lights and Nova are different. The Summoner's probably worse than the CTF. I'm agnostic on the WHK.

All of this really suggests that each chassis should get its own Elo. Or we need a battle value system.

[mike29tw]

Techorse, on 06 August 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

With the current selection of clan 'mechs, yes.

But you know what's funny? If they add the Firemoth, the clans suddenly have the fastest light in the game. Not even a max engined XL equipped locust can catch one if I remember right.

3 Firemoths to cap points might become a thing.

On alpines, maybe. The rest of the maps aren't really big enough to make a noticeable difference. It probably gives you 5 seconds head starts on capping.

And then the Jenners arrive.

[Sug]

People still play Conquest?

[Monkey Lover]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

100 ton DW is much much more deadly than a 100 ton Atlas. Hardpoints are major factor.

Much more? I seen a atlas kill as many people as a dire wolf. If a dire isn't in a pack I will kill him with my light. I have done a lots of times.


Really the only problem with clans is the hitboxes are broken.

[El Bandito]

Monkey Lover, on 06 August 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Much more? I seen a atlas kill as many people as a dire wolf. If a dire isn't in a pack I will kill him with my light. I have done a lots of times. Really the only problem with clans is the hitboxes are broken.

As long as you are talking about personal experience, I fear meeting Direwolves more than any Atlas since I know the Direwolf will hurt at all ranges. Atlas is either brawler ouch build or LRM D-DC build, most of the time.

[Devilsfury]

El Bandito, on 06 August 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

As long as you are talking about personal experience, I fear meeting Direwolves more than any Atlas since I know the Direwolf will hurt at all ranges. Atlas is either brawler ouch build or LRM D-DC build, most of the time.

I agree!! DW are just way OP at any range. Atlas....not so much!

[Monkey Lover]

Devilsfury, on 06 August 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

I agree!! DW are just way OP at any range. Atlas....not so much!

Only if you are in front of him. Any light can get behind a dire and most max engine IS mediums can too.

I would take an atlas in a lrm war (ddc being the best). Dire is about the only mech where I have seen every lrm hit haha

[Bhael Fire]

A MWO BattleValue should be implemented that takes the mech's specific LOADOUT into account — not its weight class or tonnage....or some silly Elo system that rates wins vs losses (in a game that makes no distinction between an organized team vs a solo player).

In other words, each player should be rated purely on what they are bringing to the table; Equipment, weapons, armor, modules, and mech efficiencies can ALL be rated — whereas individual player skill is much harder.

Maybe throw in an experience modifier of Basic, Elite, Master.

Also...always rate solo and grouped players separately. ALWAYS.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 06 August 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[Sable Phoenix]

Bhael Fire, on 06 August 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

A MWO BattleValue should be implemented that takes the mech's specific LOADOUT into account — not its weight class or tonnage....or some silly Elo system that rates wins vs losses (in a game that makes no distinction between an organized team vs a solo player).

In other words, each player should be rated purely on what they are bringing to the table; Equipment, weapons, armor, modules, and mech efficiencies can ALL be rated — whereas individual player skill is much harder.

Maybe throw in an experience modifier of Basic, Elite, Master.

Also...always rate solo and grouped players separately. ALWAYS.

This. Absolutely this.

ELO is utterly meaningless in a game like this. ELO is designed for frigging chess. It has no place in a team game.

Everything that Bhael Fire says is 100% dead on.

[John1352]

Adjusted tonnage matching isn't the solution. The clans DPS weapons are easy to keep on a huge component that moves around at 50-60 km/h. I'd want to be in something faster that I can avoid the damage in.

12 vs 10 OR death when 1/5th of your engine is destroyed are the sensible solutions.

[Mazzyplz]

loadout doesn't work out either, the small lasers would come out always as low rated weapon but it can actually disintegrate armor quickly due to the cooldown and the mobility of embers etc..
the stormcrow wouldn't rate as high as it should either, even though it is a nasty critter.

the awesome would rate over a victor due to having so many hardpoints either that or you give the energy loadout of battle value something less. but then you are underestimating the stalker as well...


how would you assess builds that are multirange, all single range, pinpoint vs dps, how would you rate missiles in this system?
how would you rate streaks vs srm and jumpjets vs lack thereof? and what about the new quirks? do you rate someone who boats 4 of the same weap, or somebody who is maximizing hardpoint usage by sheer medlas count? you would have to keep all that in mind because they influence the loadout! it is a lot to keep track of

[Sable Phoenix]

Mazzyplz, on 07 August 2014 - 01:04 AM, said:

loadout doesn't work out either, the small lasers would come out always as low rated weapon but it can actually disintegrate armor quickly due to the cooldown and the mobility of embers etc..
the stormcrow wouldn't rate as high as it should either, even though it is a nasty critter.

the awesome would rate over a victor due to having so many hardpoints either that or you give the energy loadout of battle value something less. but then you are underestimating the stalker as well...


how would you assess builds that are multirange, all single range, pinpoint vs dps, how would you rate missiles in this system?
how would you rate streaks vs srm and jumpjets vs lack thereof? and what about the new quirks? do you rate someone who boats 4 of the same weap, or somebody who is maximizing hardpoint usage by sheer medlas count? you would have to keep all that in mind because they influence the loadout! it is a lot to keep track of

Every mech and component in tabletop has a number called the Battle Value.

The work's already done by FASA, PGI just needed to put it in the game.

But no, instead of BV, which is actually designed for this game, we get ELO instead, which is designed for... chess. Brilliant.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 07 August 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[Noth]

Sable Phoenix, on 07 August 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Every mech and component in tabletop has a number called the Battle Value.

The work's already done by FASA, PGI just needed to put it in the game.

But no, we get useless ELO instead.

BV could not translate to this game directly. Here is an example why. The Awesome in BT has a 1358 BV value. The victor has a 1165 value. Yet here the Victor is hands down better which is the opposite of what the BV indicates. Further BV is not fine, hence the version 2 and they are currently working on yet another version.

[Mystere]

Bhael Fire, on 06 August 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

A MWO BattleValue should be implemented that takes the mech's specific LOADOUT into account ...

Do you actually believe that people would come to an agreement on what values to use for BV? People can't even agree on the nature of the LRM, and you expect people to agree with respect to all equipment? I say good luck with that because I can already imagine the massive QQ storm coming.