Really its only partially LRMs that need a small tweak, but its the "Information Warfare" side that needs the big changes. The only thing I really think LRMs actually need is a slight velocity decrease, from 160 to 150. Maybe a bit of impulse (screen shake) drop again too, especially for LRM5's since they are easily chained. But their damage should definitely stay as is, they should remain viable weapons.
So where does that leave the big IW changes? For starters ECM and Narc need adjustments, in addition to options for non-ECM mechs (passive radar mode):
- GECM should not provide Angel ECM cover to nearby friendlies (but should continue to interfere with Narc transmission on nearby friendlies, and interfere with lockons of nearby enemies)
- Angel ECM should be created as a new ECM device that can be slotted into the ECM slot as an alternative to GECM. Angel ECM gives friendly mechs "ECM radar coverage" but the user of the Angel is not covered. Angel ECM does not interfere with lockons of nearby enemies.
- Passive radar mode should be added to the game, this would allow even non-ECM mechs to not be targeted outside of around 400 meters when passive (more if BAP/Radar Range module equipped or TAG or friendly who is closer relays the target), at the cost of not being able to detect active mechs on the radar themselves outside of that 400 meters or other passive mechs at 250m (or not at all).
- Narc beacons should be destroyed by EMP, that is if the mech that is Narced gets hit by any PPC
- When you are Narced, you should have an indicator on the HUD much like when you are being countered by ECM
Edited by CapperDeluxe, 11 August 2014 - 05:35 AM.
I think that the best solution is to make LRMs unable to lock without direct line of sight of your mech, unless the ally that is spotting for you is using a TAG, the target is NARCed, or there is a friendly UAV overhead. The change would increase the effectiveness of the TAG and NARC weapon systems and indirectly nerfs LRM spam.
I also think that the amount of AMS ammo per ton should be increased by 50% or doubled. As it stands, I burn through 1 to 1 and a half tons of AMS ammo in the first two minutes of the game.
I've seen this before. Exactly the same complains which in fact have some very valid foundations.
And exactly the same answers coming from the same elitists whose best argument is insulting others by their constant lame "L2P-cliche" answers, assuming that nobody but them and their "LRMS are fine" buddies know how to play.
Yep, I've seen it before. In several games. But particularily so in one I think everyone will know or have heard of. World of Tanks.
Now there's a certain disdain I feel each time I enter one of this discussions because I know they usually lead nowhere. This is an online forum in the internetz, and we all know how forums of the internetz really work: people aren't reading with an open mind trying to understand what the other side is saying and keeping an open door to maybe change their opinions. No, they're just looking for their own vision to remain prevalent and each time a counterargument is presented they'll fight it off any way they can. And if they can't with a proper argumentation, they'll go all "L2P" instead.
But even then I'll try to comment on this.
LRMS need a change. I don't know wether a nerf or not, but certainly a change. There's a certain law in online multiplayer gaming that says that easy to use tools should never give the same good results as harder to use tools. The harder a weapon is to use, the much more powerful it should be. The easier it is, the much weaker it should be. Failing that you're going to get a legion of people abusing the easy tool and destroying the gameplay fabric. And that's exactly what we have here. A single weapon which is essentially deciding games on it's own by it's mere presence, because is both easy to use and really powerful.
Now the LRM fanboys will predictably jump to my neck with their everpresent "L2P Noob" or "use the tools the game has". Well, the first ones can go to hell for what I care because I despise elitists, so they can shove their attitude where the sun doesn't shine. I can't care the less about what they say.
The second ones however will get an answer: There is no real tool to counter LRM. Any tool that's in the game to counter LRMS can be countered on itself. Endstory.
Now of course I can go into a little bit of detail. So, I will. Just for once, as I know whatever I say will bounce off in the deaf ears of all fanboys:
1- Radar deprivation:Radar deprivation is to all effects nearly useless. Anyone who makes LRMS his primary damage dealing weapons is using Target Decay. And Target Decay instantly nulifies Radar Deprivation. Your 6 million module is now essentially a wasted investment.
Not to mention Radar Deprivation helps squat if you've been NARC'd. In fact a NARC in this game is almost a guaranteed "return to mechlab" ticket unless you happen to be just next to some horizontal cover. Meaning: a roof. If you dont' have a roof, almost no other cover will save you from the ,literally, hundreds, of ultra-accurate LRMS that are falling on top of you.
2- Speaking of cover: with the current flight mechanics of LRMS (which is a top-down attack) you can get ridiculous hits on targets which are nominally into cover. The only piece of vertical cover (meaning, cover you can hide behind) that will work for you is putting a big towering building between you and the LRM launcher. That works. Until the 2nd, 3rd and 4th (if not more) LRM buddies of the first one open up on you from different angles that the building you're using doesn't cover. Rekt.
3- "Run an ECM". First, they are expensive, second, there are more mechs, and if the only way to counter the LRM boats in this game is to run in an ECM mech then people will be using only seven models of mechs. Why bother using any other?.
4- "Run AMS": Helps. Somewhat. But again is not a counter. First of all, they shot some missiles down. Some is not all. And when you have 3-4 guys opening up on you with several multi LRM launchers each, you're as rekt wether you have AMS or not. And don't sell me any lame excuses here: I'm already pretty used to my twin AMS thunderbolt, I recgnize that it helps, but is far from enough.
Secondly, AMS runs on ammo. I use an average of 1500 rounds per AMS I use. More times than not they're dry by midgame. Meanwhile the LRM boats are still happily playing point-and-click from their chosen firing spot as they have ammo for whole games. Ergo: AMS helps, but is not a counter. A counter is something that cancels something else. AMS doesn't cancel squat. Don't go around trying to sell AMS as some kind of counter to LRMS because it's not.
5- "Get close to an ECM in your team". I'm not guaranteed to have an ECM in my team, for starters. Most ECM drivers have not a clue on how to use their ability to cover their own team to follow with. And on top of that: NARC just plasters on ECM. Be in your little bubble or safety or not, you receive one of those, it's doom. So much for ECM.
Finally: a Single light with ECM on his own can burst the bubble if he's fast enough to come in with ECM in counter mode for enough time for the LRM player-guided mobile batteries in the other team to unleash several volleys that will wreak havoc and dismantle the guys who were "so safe" under ECM cover.
Said that: I'l give that however ECM tends to be effective. But situationally and only IF you have an ECM mech in your game (which you can't guarantee), and IF the ECM guy knows his stuff (which is not the case 85% of the time). You can't rely the balance of one of the most effective weapons in the game to depend on wether a combination of happenings (ECM mech in a team, AND competent driver) exists in both teams. Because most times than not, the ECM won't be there, or it will be there with an incompetent driver. Meanwhile the LRMS are guaranteed to be on the other side. Hence, it's not balance, and it's not a counter because it's situational, unreliable, and more times than not the factors to balance the LRMS in a game don't happen...unless you're the one making them happen (and here we'll go back at: "what if I happen to want to play a mech without ECM?")
Look, I'm going to kinda finish off any "counter" argument here. A good measure of how OP/weak a mechanic/tool is in an online game is measuring how common it is. If most of the mechs in a given game have one at least, if not several, LRM launchers in their mechs is for a reason. If they were balanced they wouldn't be everywhere as they are now. And I'm not buying this "it's the event" lame excuse because its an invalid excuse. During last week I was driving mechs with NARC for the lols and giggles. Each time I NARC'd anyone no less than five, and it was not uncommon to see up to eight, streams of LRMS instantly appeared on the sky. That's how blasted common they are. And that's a good measure of how blasted OP they are.
I won't leave this without making another further two statements:
-I don't buy excuses for this one the same way I didn't buy them in WoT when artillery was the nightmare it was there when games with 5 or 6 artilleries per side were common. I don't buy "Lore" excuses - this is a MMO game and MMO games need to adjust to MWO balancing needs or they inevitably fail to deliver a proper enjoyable gameplay.
-IN the long run all the cries, yells, excuses, elitism, anger, flames, and insults of the artillery fanboys didn't serve them any better than if they had aknowledged their toys were terribly broken. In the long run their toys got the nerf they deserved and nowadays Artillery there is an integral part of the gameplay which is in line, and balanced, adequately within the context of the game and meta.
Right now that's not the case with LRMs in this game. It's pretty plain to see and glaringly obvious even for those who make excuses (they wouldn't need to, otherwise). So cry, yell, put excuses, show how l337 you are, feel angry, flame those who state the obvious, and insult them all you want: In the long term LRMs will be nerfed here aswell. It's just inevitable.
Easy Mode: Activated.
Clearly an unfair advantage, I have.
Watch as targets I fire at move out of the way, or locks appear and disappear without warning. Just how many missiles does it take to kill a damned Nova, anyway? No idea - can't really tell how many missiles hit.
I'm not saying it's 'hard' - but I'm not really the "doom machine" here. And I would be doing much worse if I just 'sat back and shot at boxes.'
Quote
There, LRMs fixed. See how easy?.
Actually, I've posted at length on how to fix LRMs by changing -how- one engages with LRMs more so than how effective LRMs are on the whole.
You know... one thing I did not read yet but certainly makes a huge difference in the LRM debate is the fact of focussed fire.
You know when facing a direct fire team, I run around a bend and 1-2 enemy mechs can shoot at me (except they are extremely well placed and/or I acted like a complete moron). This usually costs me 5%-10% of my overall health and let´s me dodge back around the corner (except some stupid PUG is walking behind me and blocking this way).
When facing an LRM-team 1 mech spots/Tags me and I get incomming fire from 5-10 mechs. No cover despite tunnels / caves is good enough for me to avoid 30% overall health (not armor) in an instant and most the time time beeing spotted is instant death.
The thing with LRM is this: Shooting 50 LRM from 4 Missileboats each means 200 points of dmg travelling your way. Even with spread and a 50% cover this means you get 100 dmg. Enough to kill most meds/lights outright and seriously crippling heavys. Now 4 Direct fire can surely bring more Dmg your way. But as long as I dont totally **** up there will NEVER be 4 mechs habing LOS at me at the same time.
and i quote a player from last night it started like this, ""OMFG LRMs are so op they need to be fixed F**** you LRM boats""" he died with a score of 0 dmg after sitting tin the open and leting the only lrm boat on there team pound on him. So I took him "under my wing" to say and showed him how to get around with out getting nuked by lrms about 3 rounds later after killing there 3 lrm boats by himself. "" OMFG LMAO Lrms aren't going to save you lolz bring a lrm boat again i dare ya."" Lrms are not the problem, the people who choice not to change there game play to allow the ability to counter the lrms, weather your a assalut with a lot of ams and/or ecm or a fast med meant to hunt lrm boats. But lets stop the COD fan boy mind set of "OMG it killed me. Nerf it."
ECM: Countered by TAG and NARC, AMS: Nice, but cannot handle a volley of 50+ missiles, Radar Deprivation: Have to be out of the entire enemy team's line of sight. In a coordinated team, they have a NARCer, TAGer, or just a spotter. So yes, they are easily countered, but they have counters to EVERYTHING that counters them
So it takes multiple mechs and equipment to make LRMs competitive....Yet it only takes LOS to make ballistics competitive....Seems fair.....
Does the Radar Deprivation Module counter the Advanced Target Decay Module, or vice versa? Ideally I feel like the Radar Deprivation Module should reduce the amount of time Advanced Target Decay will add to the lock, but not totally nullify it.
The problem with LRMs is neither that they don't take skill (there should be, imo, weapons with varying degrees of difficulty) nor that they do too much damage. The main problem is that they are a nuisance that won't go away. You get locked ALL THE TIME. Peek - lock. Relocate - lock. Shoota guy - lock. Do anything besides hiding behind a huge ass building - lock.
The game has become about constantly dodging LRM fire while somehow trying to still put effective fire on the enemy. Its boring, onesided and annoying. Can't even fart without getting LRM lock anymore.
That being said I still don't think its overpowered, hard to counter or difficult to dodge, I simply think its too ******* prolific and this is not what the game should be about.
Edited by Louis Brofist, 11 August 2014 - 05:56 AM.
Does the Radar Deprivation Module counter the Advanced Target Decay Module, or vice versa? Ideally I feel like the Radar Deprivation Module should reduce the amount of time Advanced Target Decay will add to the lock, but not totally nullify it.
I have ATD on my C4, here.
I think it depends entirely upon who gets the sensor contact - and even then, I'm not really sure. Since the game lagged considerably for us - it's possible that what I was seeing was mostly a product of server lag. Still, I've noticed that locks don't hold nearly like they used to. A few will hold for a while, but I think the deprivation module really puts the squeeze on indirect fire of LRMs.
Louis Brofist, on 11 August 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:
The problem with LRMs is neither that they don't take skill (there should be, imo, weapons with varying degrees of difficulty) nor that they do too much damage. The main problem is that they are a nuisance that won't go away. You get locked ALL THE TIME. Peek - lock. Relocate - lock. Shoota guy - lock. Do anything besides hiding behind a huge ass building - lock.The game has become about constantly dodging LRM fire while somehow trying to still put effective fire on the enemy. Its boring, onesided and annoying. Can't even fart without getting LRM lock anymore.That being said I still don't think its overpowered, hard to counter or difficult to dodge, I simply think its too ******* prolific and this is not what the game should be about.
Are you playing MWO because that isnt how LRMs work....You are describing pilots that are not using LRMs correctly. Those are the ones you watch the LRMs as they either hit the terrain or the cover you should be standing behind.
My opinion is LRM's aren't that badly OP right now... sure you get several mechs using LRM's on the other team and it can be a significant advantage if they can set up on a larger open map. It takes some luck and/or coordination from your team to beat the other team (ECM definitely helps).
The issue I have seen is with NARC. You get just one light with ECM using NARC on the other team and they have even a couple LRM boats and good luck, your team will likely be down 2-4 mechs at least and then it's just dominoes.... a spotter with ecm that can just wait for enemies to peek into view and hit them with NARC and then they get LRM'ed to death. NARC needs some kind of adjustment, I'd like to see shorter duration. Getting hit with NARC shouldn't be a death sentence, it should hurt you yeah... but not take you out of the game. It's easy mode to the extreme for LRM boats and all you need is a 2-4 man to decisively swing a game.
My opinion is LRM's aren't that badly OP right now... sure you get several mechs using LRM's on the other team and it can be a significant advantage if they can set up on a larger open map. It takes some luck and/or coordination from your team to beat the other team (ECM definitely helps).
The issue I have seen is with NARC. You get just one light with ECM using NARC on the other team and they have even a couple LRM boats and good luck, your team will likely be down 2-4 mechs at least and then it's just dominoes.... a spotter with ecm that can just wait for enemies to peek into view and hit them with NARC and then they get LRM'ed to death. NARC needs some kind of adjustment, I'd like to see shorter duration. Getting hit with NARC shouldn't be a death sentence, it should hurt you yeah... but not take you out of the game. It's easy mode to the extreme for LRM boats and all you need is a 2-4 man to decisively swing a game.
My thoughts as well. I generally don't mind lrms, but on Caustic or Alpine, you are dead if you get narced, there is no where to take cover with the new trajectory.
Nerf ECM so it only slows time before LOS registers a mechs existence (pre lock phase) and continues to completely block folks who don't have LOS. Then, with or without ECM as a factor, lessen the damage taken by indirect (no LOS) fire lrms. I often pilot LRM heavy mechs and can admit that they have a negative impact on game play for lots of folks. But you can also run into ECM heavy teams which is frustrating. This would help address both issues.
Yes there are plenty of counters to ECM but right now it is a lil too awesome.
And for the love of monkeys run AMS if you have issue with LRM's. Sure yours alone will only help a little but if a few more folks run it then the lil systems really help. Oh and stop throwing out the Radar dep mod as a counter. If anything it's a poor way to address issues folks have with LRM heavy teams. Not to mention it should greatly reduce lock time not break it instantly.
My thoughts as well. I generally don't mind lrms, but on Caustic or Alpine, you are dead if you get narced, there is no where to take cover with the new trajectory.
So that issue isnt with weapons, that issue is with poor map design. Those maps also create an issue of simply getting cored or equipment stripped off because of the lack of cover.
Are you playing MWO because that isnt how LRMs work....You are describing pilots that are not using LRMs correctly. Those are the ones you watch the LRMs as they either hit the terrain or the cover you should be standing behind.
You're an assault mech with 18 tons of armor. No need to worry about incoming fire.....
While I've posted this multiple times -
I don't really have a problem with LRMs until I'm getting air strikes on my ass and what seemed like a half a dozen mechs charging around the corner, anyway (although that turned out to be a figment of my imagination). Even though I committed to a rather foolish 'last charge' - I was still able to return to my cover after being lit up by 100 LRM tubes for something like 10 seconds.
Before that - I'm dipping around my cover without many problems from the LRM boats or much of a problem dealing damage to the other enemies peeking around the corner.
So i'm here in my Mech and i want to shoot a ..let's say ECM Cicada that got Narced out in the open and is now desperately trying to get back into cover. Or any Light/fast Med that you would like to imagine that i/my team just caught out of position.
Why is easier? Hovering in his general direction and pressing the Lurm button?
Holding my Clan Laser over the parts i want to damage for 2 seconds while he Zig-Zags at 150?
Or Predicting where he might move and trying to hit him with weapons that go 850-1000m/s meaning i have to predict his movement 0,5 to 1 seconds in the future while again he runs Zig-Zag at 150?
You can't seriously tell me there are people out there who tink LRMs require as much hand-eye coordination as the other 2 options.
Unless they exclusively think they will be shooting Atlases at 200 meters that have a 250 engine and no speed tweak, then yeah every weapon is pretty much noskill...
The most ammount of skill that a LRM-Boat needs is not required from the Boat, but from the teammates that have to lock//tag/narc.
Note: this post does not say i want LRMs buffed or Nerfed, it was just here to argue about skill required.
You already said it yourself. The skills required to use LRMs involve the same skills required to be good at this game: positioning, maneuvering, teamwork, situational awareness. Those are more difficult than shooting at pixels.
So that issue isnt with weapons, that issue is with poor map design. Those maps also create an issue of simply getting cored or equipment stripped off because of the lack of cover.
The map isn't going to change, so what is your point?
Mystere, on 11 August 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:
You already said it yourself. The skills required to use LRMs involve the same skills required to be good at this game: positioning, maneuvering, teamwork, situational awareness. Those are more difficult than shooting at pixels.
When you can hit someone with an ERLL while in cover and out of line of sight, you might have an argument. and anyone that is actually shooting has those requirements + applicable shot adjustments do to range and travel speed while considering damage already applied to the enemy.
Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 August 2014 - 09:00 PM, said:
Direct fire beats LRMs in trades by the simple expedient of stepping into cover after each shot, while the LRM carriers see their volleys slam uselessly into terrain.
Say this when you are the only person on your team in a Solo que who is staying in cover... Eventually you are the last person against a mainly untouched opponent team. This was my weekend.
Repeatedly facing teams with 4 or 5 LRM boats watching your team get mowed down or kept in cover until the teams Clan mechs getting in range to murder them with their superior firepower unable to maneuver because moving means not only getting attacked by the Clans but then getting LRMed.
On top that the fact there were NO ECM mechs in the list of mechs needs to complete the Lyran Challenge made things feel worse. You couldn't bring ECM and thus had to hope someone who didn't care about the Challenge or had already completed it did bring it.
My thoughts as well. I generally don't mind lrms, but on Caustic or Alpine, you are dead if you get narced, there is no where to take cover with the new trajectory.
There is plenty of cover, even around the crater.
It isn't quite as effective as a vertical building or a cliff face - but it's effective in blocking missile volleys and line of sight.
The only time where I get a decent set of locks and targets is toward the end when the enemy team is comfortable enough to charge into the open to run down what is left of my team.
Granted - I don't know whether this is 'high ELO', 'Low ELO,' or 'Middle ELO' - and I really don't care. For the most part, the people I play against and the people I play with have few problems with LRMs. Occasionally you get someone who is in the wrong place at the wrong time when he gets Narced - but that can happen with any weapon system or any encounter.
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