39 replies to this topic

[Hadrogh]

Bigbacon, on 12 August 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

so.... the next nerf will be not being able to fire weapons of different types and sizes with in .5 seconds of each other?

Omg. Please don't Jinx it.

[DAYLEET]

When i was done playing with different build on my Treb 7K and doing averageMeh i changed the loadout for a gauss and erppc. Suddently 500+damage games and 3-4kills becomes the norm. He was pretty easy too with 2 arm shields. 2 days later they nerfed the ppc lol Well it was about time they did.

Edited by DAYLEET, 12 August 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Smokeyjedi]

shad0w4life, on 12 August 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Good point with the TC, it DOES affect the PPC speed, TC7 = %15 boost and crit increase so that right there gives an assault mech a better advantage if PPC speed is such a huge deal. Toss on a TC7 in a DW and dual PPC away.

Maybe they can tweak TCs better and make them more enticing for a PPC build.

But why do clanners get the functional PPCs that we have all used and come to love........ripped from our hands by paul personally I assume..........nice move.....jerkovs.......Did you sell a few more clan mechs after IS pilos lost their primary choice weapon. (now Available on clan mechs YEY!)

Edited by Smokeyjedi, 12 August 2014 - 12:42 PM.

[keith]

Solis Obscuri, on 12 August 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Nerfing individual weapons hasn't removed massive pinpoint alphas; it just shifts which weapons are most convenient to use for massive pinpoint alphas.

• Two years ago, paired Gauss Rifles were the culprit; Paul did nothing.
  
• Eighteen months ago, PPCs got buffed and 4xPPC and 2xPPC+Gauss configs became dominant because they did a little more damage for similar weight; Paul eventually nerfed PPCs with Ghost Heat after five months (and nerfed every long range weapon that could counter it, like Large Lasers and AC/2s, even harder).
  
• After that it was all 2xPPC+Gauss, so two months later Paul nerfed the Gauss with the charge time and nerfed PPCs with a speed decrease.
  
• That put PPCs at the same projectile sped as AC/5s, so 2xPPC+2xAC/5 configs became dominant.
  
• After about six months of trying to ignore the problem, Paul nerfed AC/5s with a projectile speed decrease (and then nerfed AC/2s again for the hell of it).
  
• That put the projectile speed of PPCs closer to that of a Gauss rifle, so everyone went back to 2xPPC+Gauss.
  
• Now Paul is nerfing PPCs to have the same projectile velocity as the AC/10, which seems to present an obvious choice; even if the range of 2xPPC+AC/10 turns out to be less than ideal, 2xGauss still gives a pretty nice alpha.
  
• And meanwhile, 2xAC/20 has been broken as hell since DHS came in, and Ghost Heat didn't make a difference.

all of this. y is paul still the lead balance dev when the main problem has never been solved? its always going to be find a 30ish alpha on a mech that is high up, JJs a plus. they are pgi herp a derp 600m is great fun, snipers are not allowed in our game:D

[Summon3r]

Bulletsponge0, on 12 August 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

Are you saying MW:O doesn't have lag problems?

are u kidding? of course i am not saying that considering i have posted about the ridiculous hit registration of all ppc's and ac's varieties going through targets and simply not doing any dmg even tho a hit shows on the screen... lets not compare apples to oranges here though.

[Bulletsponge0]

Summon3r, on 12 August 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

are u kidding? of course i am not saying that considering i have posted about the ridiculous hit registration of all ppc's and ac's varieties going through targets and simply not doing any dmg even tho a hit shows on the screen... lets not compare apples to oranges here though.

I know...I just had to throw that out there....

it would be nice for PGI to actually acknowledge the horrible hit reg issues and the even worse lag/desync issues....

[DDM PLAGUE]

This is a great topic,
There is a lot of good conversation, and some really bad. But here is my take on the issue. If stand still, you will die,if you run in front of an assault pilot who can aim in a light or medium ( and sometimes a heavy) you will die in an alpha blaze, and you earned it. That is the point of an Assault or heavy Mech with multiple weapons. a multiple load out of any weapon is not the problem. By watching the pilots and Mech choices in this game, I think the biggest problem is most peeps cant wrap their head around the idea that a 30 to 70 ton Mech is not meant to be a match for a 80 to 100 ton Mech nor should they be. now that being said I am not saying a lighter Mech cant kill a heavier Mech, with good piloting, tactics and a plan, but it should be hard. I know there are a lot of you out there Like (DDM) that have been piloting Mechs of all weights and load outs Both on paper covered in hexagons and since the first computer game release in private servers & League play. Have you noticed how the bitching never changes. I will be 50 this Sept, And I know I am not the oldest pilot by any means. But I have been slinging Lasers for 30 years, Yes there are some things that need to be addressed, but one of them is not turning every match into a brawl, or every Mech into every other Mech.
Some weapons should be kick ass, some not so much that's the truth about weapon platforms. "learn to fight the one you have", to the best of your ability, you and your lance mates will be happier, your glory & c-bills will abound. But quit bitchin about everyone else's builds or Mechs or weapons and realize the tonnage is supposed to make a difference, that's kind of the point, you need to move fast and be unseen, scout and gang up on stragglers or damaged mechs go light, you want to carry as much phreaking fire power as possible, go heavy. but never ever ever ever stand still {unless your eating a samich). and as I said learn to fight the Mech you have or are assigned" .
Plague out.

Edited by DDM PLAGUE, 12 August 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Darth Futuza]

Seems like players just have to get better to use them now. Which is probably a good thing.

[DDM PLAGUE]

Ok the vodka is kicking in so let my add to my original thoughts.
If you really want to balance the game, you return all weapons to the original cannon specs.
Than you bring damage repair & reload into the game. That is how the real world works.
Weapon platforms are expensive, they are expensive to operate.
If you want to run a Mech with multi Gauss, and or PPCs or LRMs than it will cost you in both repair replacement of said weapons when they are destroyed in the field and in reloads. and this applies to all weapons & platforms.
So once you have had your ride beat up and repaired a few times, you will eventually get to a point when you will either have to stable the Mech until you can afford the repair reload, or reconfigure with some less expensive weapons or run another Mech until you break that one and so on and so an.
But this will never happen, can you imagine the, the fervor if you take away the never ending ammo, or magic repair facility.
I for one would welcome it. Think of the new mix of mechs and weapons , not to mention Tactics you would see by a C-bill driven repair & reload economy, It would add a whole new layer to unit/clan play. and Unit/Clan internal workings, there would have to be a way to swap c-bills or parts between players, pilot salaries. It would be freaking awesome. Not to mention bring in some actual salvage.
But it will never happen, since most of these Mech jockeys now days drive a Mech with a mouse & a Keyboard, They don't even know what a H.O.T.A.S system is throw in rudder pedals and they turn green, Although they still need to fix the support for said.
They think this is MOH with really cool skins.
Vote to bring in the Repair,reload, salvage driven economy. Than if you Run something that is a 100tons and you get the repair bill, you will see the balance thru your tears, Can you Imagine who much it would be to repair a Daishi or an Atlas. You would start to see peeps being a lot more carful about where they stick their nose.

Edited by DDM PLAGUE, 12 August 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Summon3r]

DDM PLAGUE, on 12 August 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

This is a great topic,
There is a lot of good conversation, and some really bad. But here is my take on the issue. If stand still, you will die,if you run in front of an assault pilot who can aim in a light or medium ( and sometimes a heavy) you will die in an alpha blaze, and you earned it. That is the point of an Assault or heavy Mech with multiple weapons. a multiple load out of any weapon is not the problem. By watching the pilots and Mech choices in this game, I think the biggest problem is most peeps cant wrap their head around the idea that a 30 to 70 ton Mech is not meant to be a match for a 80 to 100 ton Mech nor should they be. now that being said I am not saying a lighter Mech cant kill a heavier Mech, with good piloting, tactics and a plan, but it should be hard. I know there are a lot of you out there Like (DDM) that have been piloting Mechs of all weights and load outs Both on paper covered in hexagons and since the first computer game release in private servers & League play. Have you noticed how the bitching never changes. I will be 50 this Sept, And I know I am not the oldest pilot by any means. But I have been slinging Lasers for 30 years, Yes there are some things that need to be addressed, but one of them is not turning every match into a brawl, or every Mech into every other Mech.
Some weapons should be kick ass, some not so much that's the truth about weapon platforms. "learn to fight the one you have", to the best of your ability, you and your lance mates will be happier, your glory & c-bills will abound. But quit bitchin about everyone else's builds or Mechs or weapons and realize the tonnage is supposed to make a difference, that's kind of the point, you need to move fast and be unseen, scout and gang up on stragglers or damaged mechs go light, you want to carry as much phreaking fire power as possible, go heavy. but never ever ever ever stand still {unless your eating a samich). and as I said learn to fight the Mech you have or are assigned" .
Plague out.

well put, i love the bitching that well my atlas gets dummied head on by a direwolf LMAO yes i would hope it does, its no news flash not to stand infront of the whale..... seeing as they will never go to canon specs i really cant understand why that muppet in charge of so called balance and nerf bat swinging does not take out pinpoint alpha and use a cone of fire. everything fixed right then and there. its been suggested for as long as i can remember.

[Foster Bondroff]

Solis Obscuri, on 12 August 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Nerfing individual weapons hasn't removed massive pinpoint alphas; it just shifts which weapons are most convenient to use for massive pinpoint alphas.

• Two years ago, paired Gauss Rifles were the culprit; Paul did nothing.
  
• Eighteen months ago, PPCs got buffed and 4xPPC and 2xPPC+Gauss configs became dominant because they did a little more damage for similar weight; Paul eventually nerfed PPCs with Ghost Heat after five months (and nerfed every long range weapon that could counter it, like Large Lasers and AC/2s, even harder).
  
• After that it was all 2xPPC+Gauss, so two months later Paul nerfed the Gauss with the charge time and nerfed PPCs with a speed decrease.
  
• That put PPCs at the same projectile sped as AC/5s, so 2xPPC+2xAC/5 configs became dominant.
  
• After about six months of trying to ignore the problem, Paul nerfed AC/5s with a projectile speed decrease (and then nerfed AC/2s again for the hell of it).
  
• That put the projectile speed of PPCs closer to that of a Gauss rifle, so everyone went back to 2xPPC+Gauss.
  
• Now Paul is nerfing PPCs to have the same projectile velocity as the AC/10, which seems to present an obvious choice; even if the range of 2xPPC+AC/10 turns out to be less than ideal, 2xGauss still gives a pretty nice alpha.
  
• And meanwhile, 2xAC/20 has been broken as hell since DHS came in, and Ghost Heat didn't make a difference.

It's like the roof is leaking, so you put down a bucket to catch the drips.Then new drip starts over the couch, so you put a tarp over the couch. Then another drip appears so you go put a stockpot under it. And that keeps up for months until your house is full of pots and tubs of brackish water and all you furniture is under tarps, and, lo and behold, the roof still leaks and you're getting worse and worse mildew and water damage. The pinpoint high-alpha meta will always remain dominant until PGI actually does something to confront it directly, instead of just nerfing a bunch of weapon systems individually (which more often than not just ninja-buffs the new FotM high-alpha build).

That sums it up pretty well. With the latest changes the PPC/ER PPC is now almost back to what is was in BETA, with the exception, that is does more heat than back in BETA.

There was a good reason why the projectile speed was set to such a high value.

And lets not forget, that there was only one mech in the field that could mount 2x Gauss + 2x ER PPCs. To make the direwhale effective the pilot had to learn to sync gauss and PPC, so there was a good deal of skill involved in making that a powerful build. There are many more, much easier to use builds in the direwhale.

Thats an additional funny point. PGI desynced gauss and PPC by that weird charge mechanic with the argument, a powerful pin point alpha should be possible, but should involve a good deal of skill. And now that some players have mastered that skill, they introduce a patch, that tries to offset that skill. So what they basicly say is we do not want such high pin point alphas. Which is funny, because convergence, cone of fire or weapons spread are not discussed by them for introduction....

Edited by Foster Bondroff, 12 August 2014 - 11:47 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Foster Bondroff, on 12 August 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Thats an additional funny point. PGI desynced gauss and PPC by that weird charge mechanic with the argument, a powerful pin point alpha should be possible, but should involve a good deal of skill. And now that some players have mastered that skill, they introduce a patch, that tries to offset that skill. So what they basicly say is we do not want such high pin point alphas. Which is funny, because convergence, cone of fire or weapons spread are not discussed by them for introduction....

Perhaps Paul considered pounding the alphastrike key such an exquisite expression of skill and human perfection that he believed it would be impossible for any person alive to learn to press two buttons with a 0.75s offset... he did not figure upon the precision grips made possible by our opposable digits.

[TyGeR STD]

the C-ER PPC change has done nothing to the way they are used in the higher tier game play. The point of the change was to attempt to stop the 2 guass 2 or 3 C-ER PPC combo on the Direwolf and it did not. The only way to stop that single combo is to add the guass charge mechanic to the PPCs, then combind them into the same pool that only 2 of them can be charged and fired at the same time.

the C-ER LL change to a 2 sec burn time has made the weapon totally useless.

[Vanguard319]

DAEDALOS513, on 12 August 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

What is the problem with nerfing exactly? Who enjoys getting one-shotted? I don't think anyone does. As an attacker, don't you want more of a challenge than to be able to severely damage or kill an opponent with one shot? I for one still think arty and lrm's need to be nerfed BIG TIME.

Because there were better ways to address the issue that should have been tried before a nerf was considered. they would not be necessary if PGI did what many people said and did something to break up Pinpoint aim. If high heat affected your accuracy and movement for example, all those 6 ERLL/PPC Stalkers wouldn't have been so ridiculously broken as they would have to cool down before firing again, and once they fired, they would be a big, dumb, easy target for return fire.

[Summon3r]

Vanguard319, on 13 August 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Because there were better ways to address the issue that should have been tried before a nerf was considered. they would not be necessary if PGI did what many people said and did something to break up Pinpoint aim. If high heat affected your accuracy and movement for example, all those 6 ERLL/PPC Stalkers wouldn't have been so ridiculously broken as they would have to cool down before firing again, and once they fired, they would be a big, dumb, easy target for return fire.

it is mind boggling how pinpoint fire has not been addressed yet (nvm pgi still employs Paul), how do you only try one way of fixing things (nerfbat) especially when it is continually seen as a bandaid and or complete fail

[Cest7]

Vanguard319, on 13 August 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Because there were better ways to address the issue that should have been tried before a nerf was considered. they would not be necessary if PGI did what many people said and did something to break up Pinpoint aim. If high heat affected your accuracy and movement for example, all those 6 ERLL/PPC Stalkers wouldn't have been so ridiculously broken as they would have to cool down before firing again, and once they fired, they would be a big, dumb, easy target for return fire.

This idea SO good that PGI probably passed over it and turned it down more than once.

[LastPaladin]

Smokeyjedi, on 12 August 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

.Who wants to shoot a blue marsh mellow at the enemy @AC20 projectile speeds. I always thought the PPC and the Gauss rifle shared the highest projectile speeds in lore?

I don't think tabletop had projectile speeds, because that was all figured into the damage per round a weapon could do over 10 seconds. Still, a PPC stands for "Particle Projector Cannon", it shoots charged particles... and charged particles travel a hell of a lot faster than any cannon round ever could.

[SolCrusher]

All this whining, you know SRM6 work great when you have 6 of them? I one shot people in my splatcat all night long. What's the difference? I risk getting killed well before I make it into 270m of anyone. You just need to choose the correct attack vectors and you'll win, no matter what mech you are piloting whether Meta or not.

[Wesxander]

Weapon speeds (in flight) according to battletech tabletop were from firing unit to target: Lasers, PPC (refered to in many the battletech lore books as man made lighting), Gauss, Autocannon (other than MG), Missiles (Specifically LRMS)

When the clans invaded the atypical weapon was PPC's and LRM's. Their PPC hit almost as hard as Gauss round. Not here I have specifically detected that some who heads up the design of this game wants AC to be the dominate weapon. They made gauss intentionally hard to use. Facts is charged gauss conductor coils is easy to keep ready power wise (similar to a transformer with a charge. It takes a long time and a lot power to charge up though. They made clan PPCs defunct and bugged. They are not doing splash damage consistently. The bare minium a clan ER PPC should be doing inside effective range is 13 otherwise it dilutes the effect the clan weapons had on Innersphere during the initial thrust.

One the problems with this game is clans are not Omni poded like they should be. Fact was Innershere didn't mod engines in mechs till some time after 3060. They had lost that tech.

Some the stuff they had change for goodgame play.

Making clan mechs all LRM's /ML boats is not good game play.

Same to be said for anyone saying 6 ppc stalkers should be in game when they never appeared in 3050 tabletop.

[101011]

Thorqemada, on 11 August 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

The maximum PPD in BT is 20, why should it be higher in MWO?

Not really...theoretically speaking, a Dire Wolf Prime's maximum PPD was 98 (196 in MWO, accounting for halved weapon damage) if the pilot was insanely lucky.