22 replies to this topic

[Tool Box]

I personally played maybe 10 matches today ... I died once. I was playing clan and it was well ... boring.
I think they need to buff the IS mechs to make them on par with the clan mechs because this whole Clan vs IS thing was fun for one match and it turned into just stomp after stomp. It makes me sad to do that to people. Very anti fun when there is a high chance that if you play IS you won't win. I know it is over now and I was wondering if the devs would post the results in some place for us to see things like win to loss ratio maybe. This whole experiment was just a little nuts if you ask me.

Edited by Tool Box, 06 August 2014 - 08:18 PM.

[BMWheels]

Yes, I agree 100% with this I played about 16 rounds today and me and my teammates won 3 of them. The 3 rounds we did win were on the conquest gamemode and we only won by getting more points than the clan mechs. The other rounds were on the skirmish gamemode and mostly every single time the clan mechs won 12:2.

[Summon3r]

no way single player matches give any solid data

[MalodorousMonkey]

Unfortunately, I barely missed the window for Clan vs IS. That being said, based on my experience playing as both IS and clan, and seeing others play, I think clans are a bit OP.

Russ Bullock even mentioned in one of the recent NGNG podcasts that clan mechs were "slightly" edging inner sphere mechs.

While clan vs IS balance was way better than I expected on release, I definitely think it could use some more balance.

[Rogue Jedi]

my experience was that the Clans almost always win, but usualy loose about half the team doing so.

while the Clans are undoubtedly more powerful in the right hands I would not say they are any where near twice as powerful (which some people have been suggesting since they arrived with, suggestions like 5 Clan vs 12 IS would be fair)

by my estimation 10 Clan vs 12 IS should be about even, I hope PGI will try this

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 06 August 2014 - 11:03 PM.

[MountainCopper]

Clan Mechs are superior by design. They are supposed to be better. But setting up full Clan vs IS teams is rather pointless in numbers of 12 vs 12.

Either Clan Mechs have to be treated as quite heavier Mechs, or the Clan number has to be reduced.

Edited by GoldenFleece, 07 August 2014 - 04:29 AM.

[GTV Zeratul]

As a 100% PUG player I used to think that the Clans were reasonably balanced but after yesterdays test I think they are somewhat overpowered. One person in chat opinioned that most clan mechs are piloted by experienced pilots and I think that is true, PGI should have that data.

Of the 8 Clan vs IS matches I played as Clan we lost 1 (9-12) while we had one 0 ping on our side and the IS team worked together realy well. The other 7 matches we won with 12-4 at worst while encountering a lot of trialmechs wich are by definitoin inferior to any mech with unlocked skills.

If PGI wants to mine usefull data they shoul set it up so that only "unskilled" mechs could drop, this would need trial Clans, or only let players drop in mechs that have atleast 8/8 basic.

For balancing I still think 2 stars vs 3 lances (10vs12) would help alot and if further balancing is needed remove some of the ghostheat for the IS. As it stands now the one advantage the IS has, pinpoint, is hampered to much by the ghostheat. The dreaded 6 PPC Stalker from way back isn't much more powerfull than any DWF at the moment in my opinion.

[Bhan Zor]

One main factor is and will be for quite some time, that there are no clan trial mechs and no newbie trying this game is going to be in a clan mech. That leaves all but at least somewhat experienced pilots for clans and at worst a team half filled with newbies on IS side. It is no surprise that with matchmaking à la IS vs Clan the ROFLSTOMP factor is very high. I played more than 12 matches yesterday and only won one - it was a IS vs IS match. the only one of this kind for me...

[AzarathRaven]

Hi, new on the forums!!

First, I want to thank the clan pilots who felt sorry for totally F*^%(!@ the inner sphere guys. It makes me happy to see that; I really do appreciate it.

BTW, I play IS (I own no clan mechs) and I mostly do PUGs. I sometimes play with a group of 4-12 but not during clan vs IS.

Second, I played some clan vs. IS matches and did not like it at all. Most games ended with 3 kills (IS) to 12 kills (Clan). Totally not balanced in my opinion. IS actually won 2 games. First game two clanners ran off by themselves into our team and we had players who knew what they were doing. We stayed at base in river city and lured them in with our stubbornness. I don't quite remember how the second game was won.

I am not sure of the lore regarding this, but my question is why are clan XL engines less vulnerable than IS XL engines? An XL is an XL; both extend into the side torso. Clan mechs need to lose both side torso to die while IS only need to lose one. WTF!?!? Also, as an IS mech with a standard engine, if you lose both side torso, how effective are you really going to be in combat? I think that if clan mechs with XL engines died from ONE side torso loss it would help balance things out. What do you guys think about this?

[AzarathRaven]

Rogue Jedi, on 06 August 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

my experience was that the Clans almost always win, but usualy loose about half the team doing so.

while the Clans are undoubtedly more powerful in the right hands I would not say they are any where near twice as powerful (which some people have been suggesting since they arrived with, suggestions like 5 Clan vs 12 IS would be fair)

by my estimation 10 Clan vs 12 IS should be about even, I hope PGI will try this

Totally agree here; 10 vs 12 would be good, or we could just never do clan vs IS again!!!

[senaiboy]

I used to think Clan might not be that much better than IS, now I beg to differ. Everywhere you read the results of Clan vs IS matches are similar.

I've only managed to play 2 games as IS against Clans. Lost both (2-12 and 7-12). My IS team in both matches are NOT newbies, no one did a suicide charge or venture into open alone, everyone listened to instruction to group up and hold our position instead of engaging in long range fire. Yet in both games we were overwhelmed by the sheer firepower of Clan mechs.

Of note is that both maps are very small (Forest Colony and River City), where the only advantages IS have (mobility and LRMs) were severely restricted.

[Jon Gotham]

AzarathRaven, on 07 August 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Hi, new on the forums!!

First, I want to thank the clan pilots who felt sorry for totally F*^%(!@ the inner sphere guys. It makes me happy to see that; I really do appreciate it.

I played my clan account, I felt the need to apologise nearly every game-it must have been horrible for the Is guys.
I strongly support the idea of at least 10vs12.

The Is teams that moved and used more PP builds did better, those that camped got crushed. You try to slug with clan mechs, you WILL lose. Now turn that fight into a rolling scrap where their heat generation can be their downfall-keep them dire wolves chasing it's a whole new story.

That said, I STILL prefer my IS mechs. My jenners,ravens and spider, my hunchbacks, cicadas and shadowhawks....and my beloved thunderbolts are still my go to's.

[Kristov Kerensky]

AzarathRaven, on 07 August 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Hi, new on the forums!!

First, I want to thank the clan pilots who felt sorry for totally F*^%(!@ the inner sphere guys. It makes me happy to see that; I really do appreciate it.

BTW, I play IS (I own no clan mechs) and I mostly do PUGs. I sometimes play with a group of 4-12 but not during clan vs IS.

Second, I played some clan vs. IS matches and did not like it at all. Most games ended with 3 kills (IS) to 12 kills (Clan). Totally not balanced in my opinion. IS actually won 2 games. First game two clanners ran off by themselves into our team and we had players who knew what they were doing. We stayed at base in river city and lured them in with our stubbornness. I don't quite remember how the second game was won.

I am not sure of the lore regarding this, but my question is why are clan XL engines less vulnerable than IS XL engines? An XL is an XL; both extend into the side torso. Clan mechs need to lose both side torso to die while IS only need to lose one. WTF!?!? Also, as an IS mech with a standard engine, if you lose both side torso, how effective are you really going to be in combat? I think that if clan mechs with XL engines died from ONE side torso loss it would help balance things out. What do you guys think about this?

The people in Clan Mechs are going to be more experienced players, in general, while the IS Mechs are more likely to be inexperienced players, in general. Trial Mechs being seen on the IS side is real good example of this.

That said, keep in mind, people DID say they would purposely lose in IS Mechs to FORCE PGI to nerf the Clan Mechs, so that will skew the results on top of everything else. And yes, in this particular game, we have more than a few players who will do things like that.

As to why the Clan Mechs are superior to IS Mechs, which they are, that's straight from the Lore of the BattleTech game this is based on. PGI has done a great job of making the Clan Mechs and their weapons be more powerful than the IS Mechs and weapons without making them actually overpowered. In Lore, playing the Pen and Paper game, you take a Shadowhawk out and face a Nova, both 50 ton Mechs, that Shadowhawk is trashed before it can fire at the Nova. Altas vs Dire, Cataphract vs Timberwolf, etc, etc, there is no way in hells any IS Mech can face a Clan Mech of equal tonnage and hope to survive. I've taken down Dire's solo with my Locust up through my Atlas, as long as I don't make the mistake of stepping in front of that Dire for more than 1 alpha(50+ tons), it's salvage. The Clan Mechs have more damage potential than the IS Mechs usually, but they do give up mobility and agility for that. The KitFox and Adder are both incredibly slow for Light Mechs, and you can't make them faster since you can't change out their engines. Every Clan Mech has hardset equipment that can't be moved or changed out, which really does limit them more than people realize.

XL engines, IS they take up 3 critical slots per torso side, Clan take 2 per torso side. 3 engine hits destroys the engine, so an IS Mech is down if you take out either side torso due to 3 engine hits, while the Clan Mech only takes 2 engine hits when it loses a torso side.

I am the XO of an IS group who will be using only IS Mechs in the game once Community Warfare starts up. I got the Daishi package and have gotten Master in the KitFox, Nova, Summoner and Dire Wolf, and promptly parked them all. I wanted to see what PGI did with the Clans, I'm happy with the results, they made them scary but not OP. I have gone back to using my IS Mechs, they are what I'll use in CW and they are what I need to have the most time in. I see lots of people talking about how no one will use IS Mechs in CW since the Clan Mechs are so OP, but they forget something...if you are an IS player/unit/faction, you can NOT use Clan toys in CW. I somehow doubt the groups who are IS based, especially the House based units, will be jumping ship en masse to join the Clans when CW starts up, especially as some of those units have been playing together for 10 + years now. I'm sure lots of the CoD kiddies will be doing that, but that's fine, people who think the only way to win is to have the supposedly OP toys are always fun to take down, they tend to lack any actual skills and are usually all Rambos. Little secret, this is a team based game, Rambos just die fast and amuse the rest of us.

[Ozric]

Kristov Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

PGI has done a great job of making the Clan Mechs and their weapons be more powerful than the IS Mechs and weapons without making them actually overpowered.

Quite the quote. I love a non-sequitur in the morning.

[SteelTantrum]

'As to why the Clan Mechs are superior to IS Mechs, which they are, that's straight from the Lore of the BattleTech game this is based on. PGI has done a great job of making the Clan Mechs and their weapons be more powerful than the IS Mechs and weapons without making them actually overpowered.'

The clan mechs are horribly OP and the test has proved it, I don't know anyone that has thrown the towel in but I do know lots of people that only played for a short while before giving up. There's only so many stomps you can play before you get fed up with losing. the lore supports the clan advantage BUT and this is is a big but the game is meant to be balanced and giving that advantage to those with a bigger wallet/purse is unfair to those that have spent time and money building up our selection of IS mechs only to find they are outclassed by the latest additions. I have found that one alpha from a clan mech has frequently destroyed my undamaged mediums and lights, wheres the fun in that PGI?.

[ShinVector]

Kristov Kerensky, on 07 August 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

I've taken down Dire's solo with my Locust up through my Atlas, as long as I don't make the mistake of stepping in front of that Dire for more than 1 alpha(50+ tons), it's salvage.

I believe the Diashies you have down solo in your Locust is part of the 10%..

[C E Dwyer]

We talking the public 12v 12 or the private games which were set up 12v10 to test balancing.

Also just think of how bad it would have been if the cry babies had got their over powered clan mechs when PGI did a sensible thing and made them far less extreme

[MadTulip]

I approve current clan mech power . cant flame every time you know...

90% seems about right to lore.

Hope that 10vs 12 works out.

Edited by MadTulip, 12 August 2014 - 03:55 AM.

[WM Wraith]

GTV Zeratul, on 07 August 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

As a 100% PUG player I used to think that the Clans were reasonably balanced but after yesterdays test I think they are somewhat overpowered. One person in chat opinioned that most clan mechs are piloted by experienced pilots and I think that is true, PGI should have that data.

Clans simply played aggressive in every match I played and won with Clan mechs. In this game, rolling in to, and through your enemy before they can organize is the killing blow on such small maps. Once two or three mechs are down on the enemy side, it is down hill from that point on and they almost inevitably (90% of the time PGI???) lose the match.

Statistically the outcomes were crap and unusable. No controls, no leveling of experience (ELO is not the same as leveling of experience and skill), no real match analysis or validation is used for the analysis other than simple win/loss.

Put 12 new players (3 weeks or less - forget ELO) in clan mechs, against any veteran team (two years play time) in IS mechs.....have the IS team swarm and engage aggressively and the outcomes are probably near the same giving the IS team a 90% or better win ratio.

For what it was worth, by the end of the test, when clans did not rush the IS mechs, and the IS started using tactics they were figuring out at the end that worked, they started winning matches. An interesting statistic, if PGI could provide, is what were the outcomes of the test in the last hour played. Bet the IS won more matches that last hour than they did in the first hour. Why? Because they were getting their collective act together and figuring out how to win against clan mechs which they had never played exclusively as a group before. Old tactics were not working. It simply took a while to figure out what would work and deploy it.

Just like Battletech history....clans over powered, won all battles, IS got smarter, started winning......

[QuaxDerBruchpilot]

GoldenFleece, on 06 August 2014 - 11:13 PM, said:

Clan Mechs are superior by design. They are supposed to be better. But setting up full Clan vs IS teams is rather pointless in numbers of 12 vs 12.

Either Clan Mechs have to be treated as quite heavier Mechs, or the Clan number has to be reduced.

Unless PGI starts to "balance" ....