53 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

Lord Scarlett Johan of Yazoo, on 13 August 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I figured I'd go ahead and help out, because the parrots won't do the homework and will keep parroting the same spill until the facts are thrown in their face. And it gets annoying to having to dispel the dumb.

HBK-4G, stock 200 engine, elite efficiencies:

• Torso Yaw: 150°
  
• Torso Yaw Speed: 80°/s
  
• 71.3kph tweaked speed

VTR-9B, 385 rated engine, elite efficiencies:

• Torso Yaw: 108°
  
• Torso Yaw Speed: 96°/s
  
• 85.8kph tweaked speed

But those numbers aren't very realistic either... because you know, stock Medium vs an Assault with 29tons dedicated to engine...



HBK-4G, 250 engine, elite efficiencies:

• Torso Yaw Speed: 100°/s
  
• 89.1kph tweaked speed

VTR-9B, 350 engine, elite efficiencies:

• Torso Yaw Speed: 87°/s
  
• 78.0kph tweaked speed

And those numbers don't even include the Victor's battleship levels of turn radius.

Engine tonnage is irrelevant for movement formulas. It's all about the rating. Also, the Victor has negative quirks applied to it. Every mech in the game uses the same mobility formulas. Then quirks are applied on top of that to "differentiate" chassis.

If you have two mechs with the same engine with no quirks, and Mech 1 is half the weight of Mech 2, Mech 1 will be twice as mobile as Mech 2 (twice as fast, turns twice as quickly...). That is how the system works.

EDIT: Don't believe me? Compare the stock CN9-D to any stock Atlas (except the BH).

Edited by Artgathan, 13 August 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[Archon]

Oh yeah. The Highlander. I used to love that mech! I forgot I had one it's been collecting dust for so long...damn thing now moves like a fax machine from the 1970s.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

they deleted my post again because i was name calling. How i love this .

i will say it more eloquently then.

the multifaceted problem with agile assaults has conspired to quandary the abilities of the game dev(s) to achieve a proper "balance" between maneuverability and the feeling of "tackiness" this has led us to the point where 10 tons of JJ on a highlander is a wasted investment mostly because you are better off with more firepower and only a couple jets to get over small pebbles and "JJ tap" up a hill rather then outright possessing the jumping ability to surmount obstacles

this has left the highlander with little to no real jumping ability and it handles like a tread-less tank on top of it

this has left the the victor with no real options other then boating gauss/ac's and ppcs since it simply cannot compete in brawling and cannot effectively flank similarly like the highlander

in both you need to equip the largest XL engines possible to have any real effect as an assault, this has relegated the "standard engines" for these two mechs to the trash heap, where they rightly belong as a result of the changes to their agility.

neither one ever performed like a med and the timber wolf outclasses them both wholesale in the agility department. but similarly you cannot equip and orion with any kind of competitive build and have it come close to the performance of a timber wolf.

so in all ways a timber wolf is better then an orion, the victor or a highlander. even tho a highlanders should definitely possess the firepower and armour to knock a timber wolf out like a bad cold. as it stands currently a timber wolf can run circles around a highlander and just piece it up with better firepower and a massive agility advantage.

the victor cannot compete with a timber wolf in firepower if it packs an engine to match its speed neither can it match its agility in any way if it packs enough firepower to deal equal blows. so again the timberwolf outclasses the victor in every way.

the orion is a tin can compared to the timberwolf being only equal in armour and inferior in all other ways.

a massive 5 crit and 10 ton investment in the highlander or a 4 crit 4 ton investment in the victor really doesn't allow either to achieve their designed goals as a flanking/brawling assault that can get into (and out) of a battle over obstacles to bring their brawling firepower and agility into play. so in all regards they are simply gimped mechs that cannot compete with a mech that is both lighter/faster/more agile and possess vastly more firepower then they can similarly bring to the battle.

yes timber wolfs jump for #$#$ now too but they were not built around the "concept" of being a tanky mobile brawler that can surprise the enemy by flanking or moving into a battle from behind cover (something brawlers need if they ever are to be effective)

and the proof is in the pudding because the only victor/highlander i even feel like playing is my "mini metal" Victor 9K with 6 JJ 3 LL and a gauss. and even then anything under a xl320 makes it unusable as a fast maneuverable assault.

realistically a victor has to pack a xl350 or better to really have any kind of "agility" and this greatly limits your firepower to the point where you are no match against a timber wolf. so again my victor is little more then a sniper that can get into a good spot.

highlanders with an engine cap of 320 and an average limit of 4JJ are basically crap. and not worth using.

polite enough for you pgi?

[Sephlock]

Mcgral18, on 13 August 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Well...he could normalize the assaults.

Though, I wonder which direction he would do it...

We don't take kindly to usage of the N word here.

We're still in mourning over IS pulse lasers...

[SgtMagor]

keep trying to push myself to use these mechs, but using jump jets on them is almost pointless...

[Sephlock]

SgtMagor, on 13 August 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

keep trying to push myself to use these mechs, but using jump jets on them is almost pointless...

Just treat them like Gimpy Atlases...

[XX Sulla XX]

The Highlander does seem like the sad second rate Atlas.

[Lily from animove]

Ryvucz, on 13 August 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Crazy word in bold.

- Edit And size increased.

how fast was the victor before the speed nerf? How fast is a 75t mech? Staring at the TW. ?

I think unlocking torso turn speed and fix torso turn speed by a number for each tonnage is a better way. Torsotwist speed should not be engine related.

[Khobai]

They should unnerf the Victor and Highlander

However they should also decouple engine speed from torso twist speed. torso twist speed should be determined by the tonnage of the mech and NOTHING else. putting a bigger engine in should not increase your torso twist speed.

[PANZERKAT]

WW2 German tankers and others more than likely learned that you could rev the engine to turn the turret faster as they were powered.

Engine impacting the turn speed makes sense if we're trying to make it work in our heads.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I like these threads because they make me laugh. My Highlander is still one of my favorites but the caveat is its not a meta build. Its a freak build and I have never run JJs on it.

The real problem here is the absolute push to run meta mechs where all builds are the same. Try experimenting within your skill sets and stop thinking meta.

I have found many mechs considered no good anymore still can be effective if you build to its best suit in today's gameplay. Throw out the book on K/D ratio madness and just have fun. When I have a build the other team makes a point of wanting to kill first I am on the right track.

Just an idea for you is to think fourth generation warfare when you build. Harassment and creating confusion should be included in the mix. Its team play so stop trying to be the hero always and consider what will give your team the most time on the trigger and keep the other team from concentrating on sole targets. Unusual builds may not elevate your scores but can elevate team wins if applied well. Have fun and screw the competitive mindset for meta only.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

there is no reason at all really any more to keep then nerfed to the ground other than out of stubbornness... have not played my Victor when they nerfed them
and i do not like playing PPC guss ..... boring as hell... not fun... rather use a spork to my eyes not fun...

[Ryvucz]

Lily from animove, on 14 August 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

how fast was the victor before the speed nerf? How fast is a 75t mech? Staring at the TW. ?

I think unlocking torso turn speed and fix torso turn speed by a number for each tonnage is a better way. Torsotwist speed should not be engine related.

Victor is still 10,000 pounds/4535.924 kilograms heavier than the Timber Wolf, and also an assault class. Completely different than a heavy. 5 tons is not as small a weight scale as it seems.

[Khobai]

Quote

Victor is still 10,000 pounds/4535.924 kilograms heavier than the Timber Wolf, and also an assault class. Completely different than a heavy. 5 tons is not as small a weight scale as it seems.

Well thats also why all four weight classes should have their own skill trees.

Lights/Mediums could keep 10% torso twist speed as a basic skill
Heavies could instead get 5% torso twist speed and 7.5% shake reduction as a basic skill
Assaults could instead get 15% shake reduction as a basic skill.

And eliting the skill tree would still double all the above basic skills.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Victor needs to be restored.

If not completely, at least halfway to make using standard engines a reality again instead of a long lost dream.

Highlander just needs a jet boost, he turns pretty good with a 325.

[Carrie Harder]

I miss my 2 LL + 2 UAC/5 Victor.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Victor is still 10,000 pounds/4535.924 kilograms heavier than the Timber Wolf, and also an assault class. Completely different than a heavy. 5 tons is not as small a weight scale as it seems.

It really is as small as it seems. You can look at all the mechs and see the average change over that weight range to see the Victor was hit to hard. Also a very important thing to remember is what class is. Class is just an arbitrary deviding line nothing more.

[Khobai]

Quote

Class is just an arbitrary deviding line nothing more.

That shouldnt be the case though. Because of 3/3/3/3. Every weight class should be different because matchmaker says they are.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Khobai, on 14 August 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

That shouldnt be the case though. Because of 3/3/3/3. Every weight class should be different because matchmaker says they are.

well it is and always had been sense TT days...

[Hans Von Lohman]

To the OP.

No.

The Victor is an Assault mech, and that means it needs to lumber around slowly, not dance like a ballerina. I am fine with the changes.

And yes, I own the Victor.