98 replies to this topic

[Reitrix]

So 3 matches tonight, can't take a step out of cover without hundreds of missiles lobbed in my direction.
Tried in Assaults, Heavies and Mediums. ECM is irrelevant, As only the A1 Cat is incapable of carrying its own TAG. And the majority of all the boats i've seen are Stalkers.

On Canyon, in my Nova, engaged a Stormcrow, got the Stormcrow half dead, and my screen fills up with Missile explosions, Ended up killing that Stormcrow by focusing on the little red box and praying i was shooting straight.

An individual LRM on several 'Mechs is fine.
A single LRM boat is fine.

The problem begins when one team gets no LRM 'Mechs, and the other team gets several.
Can't even make them run out of ammo.
Built a Stalker just now with 15 tons worth of reloads. AND Backup weapons +TAG.

I think several things should happen for LRMs to be in a balanced state.
-Cut the Ammo harshly. Stuff TT rules for this.
-Push the global reload for all LRM launchers to 8 - 12 seconds.
-Increase the time needed to achieve a lock. ( And stop sharing that lock with Streaks.)
-Create a system that limits the number of LRM launchers per team.

[Zyllos]

This is what I would do with LRMs and all the Electronic Warfare that goes along with it: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3636553

[Rhaythe]

The problem is that it's hard to adjust LRMs without ruining the weapon system for those that don't boat it. A single medium with an LRM15, for example, can still do some decent damage with the weapon on its own. But if you nerf the weapon system in its entirety because of the Stalker boating 80 tubes, then that weapons platform becomes useless for the aforementioned medium mech.

I'm not convinced LRMs need too much tweaking currently to begin with. For the longest time last year, the weapon was useless. LRMs pretty much just tickled. They're somethign to be feared nowadays, and a little bit of a deterrent to Nevernewb recklessly running out into the middle of a wide open field.

Yes, it hurts when the other team boats missles - but that's no different than if the other team was boating PPCs. Luck of the draw. GGClothes, and next match.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Reitrix, on 14 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

I think several things should happen for LRMs to be in a balanced state.
-Cut the Ammo harshly. Stuff TT rules for this.
-Push the global reload for all LRM launchers to 8 - 12 seconds.
-Increase the time needed to achieve a lock. ( And stop sharing that lock with Streaks.)
-Create a system that limits the number of LRM launchers per team.

How about instead you buy Radar Deprivation, or even cheaper learn to use cover properly, instead of hiding like a little *****.

"Couldn't take a step out of cover without 100 missiles coming at you"

You do realize that unless you are within 300m (unlikely) that those missiles are going to take their sweet time getting to you. Giving you time to move to the next piece of cover and advance.

It also sounds like your WHOLE team was hiding like a bunch of pansies (a normal experience in this game since most of the good players seem to have left), leading to you get lobbed at every time you stepped out.

Nothing you can do when a 12 person team all sucks except die. Don't blame the LRMs for you being bads though.

[Yokaiko]

Reitrix, on 14 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

So 3 matches tonight, can't take a step out of cover without hundreds of missiles lobbed in my direction.
Tried in Assaults, Heavies and Mediums. ECM is irrelevant, As only the A1 Cat is incapable of carrying its own TAG. And the majority of all the boats i've seen are Stalkers.

On Canyon, in my Nova, engaged a Stormcrow, got the Stormcrow half dead, and my screen fills up with Missile explosions, Ended up killing that Stormcrow by focusing on the little red box and praying i was shooting straight.

An individual LRM on several 'Mechs is fine.
A single LRM boat is fine.

The problem begins when one team gets no LRM 'Mechs, and the other team gets several.
Can't even make them run out of ammo.
Built a Stalker just now with 15 tons worth of reloads. AND Backup weapons +TAG.

I think several things should happen for LRMs to be in a balanced state.
-Cut the Ammo harshly. Stuff TT rules for this.
-Push the global reload for all LRM launchers to 8 - 12 seconds.
-Increase the time needed to achieve a lock. ( And stop sharing that lock with Streaks.)
-Create a system that limits the number of LRM launchers per team.

Camp and it only takes one spotter to kill you.

Surprsise/

[Reitrix]

Rhaythe, on 14 August 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

The problem is that it's hard to adjust LRMs without ruining the weapon system for those that don't boat it. A single medium with an LRM15, for example, can still do some decent damage with the weapon on its own. But if you nerf the weapon system in its entirety because of the Stalker boating 80 tubes, then that weapons platform becomes useless for the aforementioned medium mech.

I'm not convinced LRMs need too much tweaking currently to begin with. For the longest time last year, the weapon was useless. LRMs pretty much just tickled. They're somethign to be feared nowadays, and a little bit of a deterrent to Nevernewb recklessly running out into the middle of a wide open field.

Yes, it hurts when the other team boats missles - but that's no different than if the other team was boating PPCs. Luck of the draw. GGClothes, and next match.

Actuallyt, theres nothing noobish about popping your head out of cover to find a shot, getting seen by soneoen two thirds across the map, and suddenly 300+ missiles are headed your way, and on maps like Canyon, Alpine and Tourmaline, outside of some very specific mountain hugging locations, theres very little to stop those missiles from hitting you if you aren't moving at 100+kph when you saw the warning.

Like i said, Singular launchers, or a single boat are what i would call "balanced", in that they are dangerous if you stand in the open derping around, but also useful in other scenarios.

The problem begins and ends with the inability to make LRM boats run out of ammo, a super quick lock on time, and having several boats on the enemy team with a full suite of LRMs that can launch 150+ missiles at a single target. And then again 4 seconds later.

The changes i suggest at the end of my OP would not prevent a single launcher from being used to soften up a target, but they would go a LONG way to preventing the madness I've been seeing the last few days including tonight, where you cannot for any reason see an enemy 'mech without hundreds of missiles raining down on you.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lol...pop your head out and have 300 missiles headed your way.

Here is the thing. If you are using direct fire weapons, you can pop out and put 20-30 damage into someone, then move back into cover, making all of those 300 missiles hit a wall.

But you obviously don't understand that.

[Yokaiko]

Reitrix, on 14 August 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Actuallyt, theres nothing noobish about popping your head out of cover to find a shot, getting seen by soneoen two thirds across the map, and suddenly 300+ missiles are headed your way, and on maps like Canyon, Alpine and Tourmaline, outside of some very specific mountain hugging locations, theres very little to stop those missiles from hitting you if you aren't moving at 100+kph when you saw the warning.

Like i said, Singular launchers, or a single boat are what i would call "balanced", in that they are dangerous if you stand in the open derping around, but also useful in other scenarios.

The problem begins and ends with the inability to make LRM boats run out of ammo, a super quick lock on time, and having several boats on the enemy team with a full suite of LRMs that can launch 150+ missiles at a single target. And then again 4 seconds later.

The changes i suggest at the end of my OP would not prevent a single launcher from being used to soften up a target, but they would go a LONG way to preventing the madness I've been seeing the last few days including tonight, where you cannot for any reason see an enemy 'mech without hundreds of missiles raining down on you.

Whatever, I can avoid missiles on every map.

Get out of here.

[Roadkill]

I don't use AMS. Waste of tonnage. Even with 3 of 'em on a Kit Fox you're still going to get hit if you stand out in the open.

I don't use Radar Derp module. Far better modules available that actually help me win. Radar Derp is for people who don't know how to use cover.

Most of my Mechs don't have ECM. Yeah, sure, I have a Raven 3L, a DDC, and a Kit Fox with the C right arm. Haven't played the first two in months, and only played the Kit Fox long enough to level it up. (Ironically, I use it as a missile boat. Try it, it's fun.)

I don't have a problem with LRMs. They're just way too easy to avoid if you play smart. I've been killed by LRMs once in the last few months. No wait, twice... forgot about the time my teammates told me the valley of death was clear and so I started across in my Daishi only to get tagged by an enemy and pounded to death. Of course, they'd have pounded me with any other weapon too. Derp Whale noob mistake on my part.

People dislike LRMs because their usefulness is determined by the target. Most other weapons have their usefulness determined by the firer. LRMs are good against bad players and bad against good players. You fire them at bads, and then if you are good you'll find that they're useless against you.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roadkill, on 14 August 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

People dislike LRMs because their usefulness is determined by the target. Most other weapons have their usefulness determined by the firer. LRMs are good against bad players and bad against good players. You fire them at bads, and then if you are good you'll find that they're useless against you.

This is it in a nut shell.

[Mister Blastman]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 August 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

It also sounds like your WHOLE team was hiding like a bunch of pansies (a normal experience in this game since most of the good players seem to have left), leading to you get lobbed at every time you stepped out.

Good heavens you aren't kidding. It drives me mad seeing a team sit still, pray behind a rock and hope they won't die. It isn't just when they are my team, either. It is even when the enemy is doing it, too.

Are people this afraid to go out of their house every day to check their mail?

If PGI had implemented a ticket based system like MW:LL a couple of years ago... we wouldn't be here, in the stone age.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mister Blastman, on 14 August 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Good heavens you aren't kidding. It drives me mad seeing a team sit still, pray behind a rock and hope they won't die. It isn't just when they are my team, either. It is even when the enemy is doing it, too.

Are people this afraid to go out of their house every day to check their mail?

If PGI had implemented a ticket based system like MW:LL a couple of years ago... we wouldn't be here, in the stone age.

Agreed it's terrible when it's your team and it's almost as bad as you see the opposition do it while you are stomping them.

I've died 4-5 times to LRMs in the last year. Every single time was a major mistake on my part. But people are just bad.

[Carrie Harder]

Methinks the sudden increase in LRM usage might have something to do with the PPC, ERPPC, CERPPC, and CERLL nerfs recently...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Carrie Harder, on 14 August 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Methinks the sudden increase in LRM usage might have something to do with the PPC, ERPPC, CERPPC, and CERLL nerfs recently...

Even if there is an increase in LRM usage.

Good players don't die to LRMs unless they make a stupid mistakes.

Bads are bads.

That's it.

[Ph30nix]

Reitrix, on 14 August 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

So 3 matches tonight, can't take a step out of cover without hundreds of missiles lobbed in my direction.
Tried in Assaults, Heavies and Mediums. ECM is irrelevant, As only the A1 Cat is incapable of carrying its own TAG. And the majority of all the boats i've seen are Stalkers.

On Canyon, in my Nova, engaged a Stormcrow, got the Stormcrow half dead, and my screen fills up with Missile explosions, Ended up killing that Stormcrow by focusing on the little red box and praying i was shooting straight.

An individual LRM on several 'Mechs is fine.
A single LRM boat is fine.

The problem begins when one team gets no LRM 'Mechs, and the other team gets several.
Can't even make them run out of ammo.
Built a Stalker just now with 15 tons worth of reloads. AND Backup weapons +TAG.

I think several things should happen for LRMs to be in a balanced state.
-Cut the Ammo harshly. Stuff TT rules for this.
-Push the global reload for all LRM launchers to 8 - 12 seconds.
-Increase the time needed to achieve a lock. ( And stop sharing that lock with Streaks.)
-Create a system that limits the number of LRM launchers per team.

the only thing LRM's need to be able to truely move towards balancing them is to remove Linked target lock ability WITHOUT special equipment.

Would solve most problems or at least require any LRM carrier to take an extra piece of equipment to have things how they are now.

Frankly they need alot of changes as far as targeting, radar and information is concerned but this would be enough so they could put some serious work into LRM's so they can be turned into either a PERFECT support weapon or into a good main weapon for mechs without ever having to worrry about them being OP or being garbage.

i know comp players would complain this would make it worse but this would be step 1, after they do this they could do other things like increase their speed, increase their damage or whatever.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ph30nix, on 14 August 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

the only thing LRM's need to be able to truely move towards balancing them is to remove Linked target lock ability WITHOUT special equipment. Would solve most problems or at least require any LRM carrier to take an extra piece of equipment to have things how they are now. Frankly they need alot of changes as far as targeting, radar and information is concerned but this would be enough so they could put some serious work into LRM's so they can be turned into either a PERFECT support weapon or into a good main weapon for mechs without ever having to worrry about them being OP or being garbage. i know comp players would complain this would make it worse but this would be step 1, after they do this they could do other things like increase their speed, increase their damage or whatever.

Get rid of ECM, then you can really start to look at doing these things.

[Roadkill]

Carrie Harder, on 14 August 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Methinks the sudden increase in LRM usage might have something to do with the PPC, ERPPC, CERPPC, and CERLL nerfs recently...

I think it's more because just about every Clan Mech can carry them, Clan LRMs are half the weight of IS LRMs, and Clan Mechs tend to be hardpoint limited meaning that you might as well plug something into that leftover missile slot.

IS Mechs tend to be missile boats or carry no LRMs at all. Since missile boats are fairly limited in their usefulness, you just don't see as many missiles flying around in an IS vs IS game. I noticed a fairly dramatic increase in missile usage when the Clan packs were delivered because just about every Mech carries a rack or two. It's not at all uncommon for 8 Mechs on each side to have at least one missile rack these days. It's not because LRMs are suddenly more powerful, though, it's just because the Clan Mechs have the space and hardpoints so might as well carry one.

[Carrie Harder]

Roadkill, on 14 August 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I think it's more because just about every Clan Mech can carry them, Clan LRMs are half the weight of IS LRMs, and Clan Mechs tend to be hardpoint limited meaning that you might as well plug something into that leftover missile slot.

IS Mechs tend to be missile boats or carry no LRMs at all. Since missile boats are fairly limited in their usefulness, you just don't see as many missiles flying around in an IS vs IS game. I noticed a fairly dramatic increase in missile usage when the Clan packs were delivered because just about every Mech carries a rack or two. It's not at all uncommon for 8 Mechs on each side to have at least one missile rack these days. It's not because LRMs are suddenly more powerful, though, it's just because the Clan Mechs have the space and hardpoints so might as well carry one.

I've been seeing more IS mechs with Lurms as well lately, and for the Clans in particular they lost their go-to extreme range poking device (CERLL). And people don't like/don't want to get used to the new slow-motion PPC speeds, so other weapons are now filling the playstyle gaps.

(Disclaimer: I am not calling anything OP or UP, I'm just noticing a trend with weapon usage).

[Hans Von Lohman]

Personally I wanted LRMs to have two modes. Direct fire and indirect fire.

We have the indirect fire right now. Lock on, fire and forget. However, this should REQUIRE a TAG laser designation, and make it a very long lock on.

For me LRM's should be aimed by the guy who fires them just like a TOW missile in other games like Battlefield or the RPG in Half Life. The missiles only chase your crosshair and have nothing to do with the enemy. You can even fire up and over friendlies in the way by looking up, firing, and then down at the enemy, making your missiles arc by your own skill.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 14 August 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Reitrix, on 14 August 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Actuallyt, theres nothing noobish about popping your head out of cover to find a shot, getting seen by soneoen two thirds across the map, and suddenly 300+ missiles are headed your way, and on maps like Canyon, Alpine and Tourmaline, outside of some very specific mountain hugging locations, theres very little to stop those missiles from hitting you if you aren't moving at 100+kph when you saw the warning.

Like i said, Singular launchers, or a single boat are what i would call "balanced", in that they are dangerous if you stand in the open derping around, but also useful in other scenarios.

The problem begins and ends with the inability to make LRM boats run out of ammo, a super quick lock on time, and having several boats on the enemy team with a full suite of LRMs that can launch 150+ missiles at a single target. And then again 4 seconds later.

The changes i suggest at the end of my OP would not prevent a single launcher from being used to soften up a target, but they would go a LONG way to preventing the madness I've been seeing the last few days including tonight, where you cannot for any reason see an enemy 'mech without hundreds of missiles raining down on you.

good opponents play merry hob with that "super quick lock time" which can also be broken very easy after, and such.

Hence why even good LRM pilots seldom break 40% accuracy with LRMs....when just one missile per volley needs contact to count as a "hit".

All the people you are arguing with, play the exact same MWO you do. Most of us, seldom have an issue. There are certainly times, and some matches, it happens. But I very seldom die from missiles, playing team or PUG.

That said, I find boating of all sorts to be out of hand, and really ridiculous, and a bit dull, so I wouldn't be against an increase in GH on LRMs, or even modify it so a LRMBBoat has to wait a full second between launchers, instead of half, to avoid the trigger.

But as for countering LRMs, they have horrible flight time, locks are EASY to break without a dedicated spotter/narc'r/UAV and they have multiple counters, in ECM, AMS, Radar Deprivation and well..Cover. Problem is, in my experience, few pilots know the difference between "concealment" and "cover" just like most can't figure out the difference between "viable" and "optimal".