53 replies to this topic

[Wildstreak]

Found this in another game discussion, scary stuff.

[Kiiyor]

Hmmm. Different people, different cultures. I'm not sure if it really applies to as much here, as in my experience being incapable of accepting blame for your own defeat is a skill in MWO that crosses all borders.

It's interesting though. Very interesting indeed.

Edit: probably true about more cultures than America too. I remember reading studies about people everywhere being far more reliant on others to provide them entertainment due to over-stimulation as kids.

Edited by Kiiyor, 03 August 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Merchant, on 03 August 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Found this in another game discussion, scary stuff.

It's true to a degree.

For instance, explaining to people the history of the Madcat/Timber Wolf or just why Clan mechs generally have two names is probably something people don't look into.

On the other hand, the entire link talks primarily about stuff to appeal more to a general audience, where the hardcore fans would prefer that not to happen. The hardcore fans prefer depth in the game... paying attention to detail, even if it's not the most important aspect of a game.

So, it kinda makes you think hard and long about the decisions made for each game...

Edited by Deathlike, 03 August 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[Kilo 40]

I can sum up that article in two letters "B" and "S".

[Davers]

So Americans are ignorant whiners who want easy games so they don't lose.

Is this a gaming article or anti-American propaganda?

[Lightfoot]

blah blah blah. How much did he charge?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The points at the end are, for the most part, just good game design.

Quote

• Craft the opening minutes to hold attention.
  
• Use a simple, clear interface.
  
• Minimise text: show, don't tell in tutorials.
  
• The player is a celebrity, give them unique customisation.
  
• Recognise that we're in the queue and the user is the master.
  
• History rarely sells and is often unknown.

Maybe the stuff about America was the hook to get his audience's attention but I would be surprised if people outside of the United States want:

• To slog through 5 hours of boring game play before the things get interesting.
  
• A cluttered interface.
  
• Walls of text.
  
• To be a nobody/an observer in an interactive medium.

[Jman5]

American attention span is fine. You just have more competition for attention these days, so you can't expect people to sit through your poorly produced programing.

Also, History sells fine. I'm shocked he would say something like this because the gaming industry is full of incredibly popular historical games. Off the top of my head you have: Civilization and the million other empire builder games, Endless supply of World War 2 games out there, Assassins Creed series, Oregon trail.

Edited by Jman5, 03 August 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[Impyrium]

Rouken, on 03 August 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

The points at the end are, for the most part, just good game design. [/list] Maybe the stuff about America was the hook to get his audience's attention but I would be surprised if people outside of the United States want:

• To slog through 5 hours of boring game play before the things get interesting.
• A cluttered interface.
• Walls of text.
• To be a nobody/an observer in an interactive medium.

I dunno... I've played games like that and enjoyed it nonetheless, it takes a special type of interest, but still...

[Mystere]

Jman5, on 03 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Also, History sells fine. I'm shocked he would say something like this because the gaming industry is full of incredibly popular historical games. Off the top of my head you have: Civilization and the million other empire builder games, Endless supply of World War 2 games out there, Assassins Creed series, Oregon trail.

History at a superficial level is probably what sells. Think "Disneyfication". Or "300" and especially the sequel. (Yuck!!!)

[Biglead]

AMERICA BETCHIS! TOP O THE WORLD WITH UNLIMITED AIRSTRIKES DO YOU EVEN EDGUCATION FGOT?

Edited by Biglead, 03 August 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

Jman5, on 03 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

American attention span is fine. You just have more competition for attention these days, so you can't expect people to sit through your poorly produced programing.

Well, part of the problem is those article/ads that try to get you to click them. While it is social engineering, it is the ugly form that tends to rear its head to get people interested. It amounts to misleading propaganda (kinda like the MWO Trailer with the 20+ mechs on "both sides" of the battlefield).

Quote

Also, History sells fine. I'm shocked he would say something like this because the gaming industry is full of incredibly popular historical games. Off the top of my head you have: Civilization and the million other empire builder games, Endless supply of World War 2 games out there, Assassins Creed series, Oregon trail.

Well, history to a degree does not always sell. You have to build a reputation first before games sell well... and there's plenty of failures along the way... but usually the design is usually fleshed out and then refined multiple times with improvements on the basic idea. If you ruin your own reputation enough, your previous history might not save you (a company like Nintendo falls into that category).

I think specifically though about "history" in that article is trying to get people interested in franchise. Consider a popular US sport like football (not soccer, sorry). I don't think everyone that's a fan of the game will like it the same way... some people go all out, knowing the history like being a historian... while many other people just like playing Fantasy Football or rooting for their own team. If we did something to compare it to Battletech and its history, you will see people in varying degrees of interest... which will be very different than those are familiar to the MW series of games. Those of us that have experienced MW2 and its derivatives will have fond ideas and memories of it... even though I didn't give a poop about the little history blurbs of famous events (they didn't draw me in that much).. but I'm sure it gave much a fulfilling experience for those that cared more than I did.

Mind you, the article isn't "wrong", but it paints a particular picture that favors the overall point, but there are other counterpoints that obviously weren't addressed, and it simplifies the picture in terms of the overall goal.

[Naduk]

What a rubbish article
Sounds like this guy makes mobile phone games
Only place half of what he says makes sense

Games likes dark souls break every single one of his 'rules' and is massively popular all over the world....including the apparent yuppie 5second attention span americas

The most popular games in history are ones that provide great depth and complexity, a solid core is so much more important than flashy attention grabbing intros and tutorials.
Chess still remains the worlds most played game
You wont find flashy info graphs to prove it but every city in the world has places where people play the game of Kings.... Usually in public

The same cannot be said for call of duty or the sims
But idiot developers like this guy will be very quick to throw flashy infographics and sales figures to prove his points

If the title of the article said "to make money fast in the games industry follow these steps" i could agree

But no he is claiming to know the hearts of gamers
Look at the history of BF2 vs BF4
You will instantly see peoples desire for quality over flash and how development ignored this and BF4 is the most unpopular BF game to date

[Coralld]

I felt like I was reading an Anti-American propaganda drivile.

The only thing I kind of agreed with was this...
"Firstly, he pointed out that American schools emphasise the student as a free thinker. Students do not fail in class. They are challenged and they are encouraged to learn from the experience, but the actual idea of failure has been dramatically reduced. Failure doesn't kick in until students reach the age of 17 and begin to apply for colleges and discover that rejection and failure is real and there's a steep impact from that."

I can't begin to tell you how often I run into the youths of this Nation and see them over flowing with an entitlement complex and unable to understand that things have consequences, especially with anything that has to do with economics, even on the most basic of levels... Then again I do live in California.

But with that being said, everything else belongs in the trash.

[Davers]

Jman5, on 03 August 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

American attention span is fine. You just have more competition for attention these days, so you can't expect people to sit through your poorly produced programing.

Also, History sells fine. I'm shocked he would say something like this because the gaming industry is full of incredibly popular historical games. Off the top of my head you have: Civilization and the million other empire builder games, Endless supply of World War 2 games out there, Assassins Creed series, Oregon trail.

Age of Empires, Total War franchise...

Honestly, historical games are huge!

[Mystere]

Coralld, on 03 August 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

I felt like I was reading an Anti-American propaganda drivile.

The only thing I kind of agreed with was this...
"Firstly, he pointed out that American schools emphasise the student as a free thinker. Students do not fail in class. They are challenged and they are encouraged to learn from the experience, but the actual idea of failure has been dramatically reduced. Failure doesn't kick in until students reach the age of 17 and begin to apply for colleges and discover that rejection and failure is real and there's a steep impact from that."

I can't begin to tell you how often I run into the youths of this Nation and see them over flowing with an entitlement complex and unable to understand that things have consequences, especially with anything that has to do with economics, even on the most basic of levels... Then again I do live in California.

But with that being said, everything else belongs in the trash.

But, hasn't it crossed your mind -- even just a little bit -- that the high occurence of people complaining here about losing streaks is a reflection of the "Everyone's a winner!" child-rearing phenomenon?

[Deathlike]

Coralld, on 03 August 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

I felt like I was reading an Anti-American propaganda drivile.

In some ways, it's true.

For instance... there is an existence of "helicopter parents", hoping that their "shielding" of their child from failure would help them out in life... but the reality is that people do need to fail, and then be taught "how to deal with it".

I mean, some people still hold onto the belief that every kid should be rewarded (aka, the participation award), when there's clearly those that won 1st in whatever (like Science Fairs or a competition). Recognizing that we should be better (unless that's not actually possible, which is rare but can happen) is the first thing we have to cultivate as a society.

The thing is, the gaming industry itself has dumbed down things quite a bit... particularly in any sort of "achievements system". I mean the current form of our achievements system is kinda lame... oooh, 50 assists, how difficult (50 kills is technically far harder for a newbie). It's really not that meaningful, and in some ways only serves to mock the "completionist" (Death Star anyone?)

It simply DOES NOT replace the need for a tutorial... no matter how PGI seems to not think that's important... since the learning curve is so steep initially for most people that are uninitiated with the MW series in general.

Whatever I guess...

Edited by Deathlike, 03 August 2014 - 08:00 PM.

[IceCase88]

I do not know school now but when I was in school we got failing grades. The downfall of my grade point average started in the mid 80s when I was in middle school. I got my first computer which was an AT. A year later I bought a hard drive for it which was a 20 MB Seagate for $300. I installed Sid Meier's Pirates which was an incredible game and I spent all my free time as well as much of my homework time playing it. So... when I was in school you would get failing grades. I do not know about now since my oldest is now entering kindergarten and going to private school.

The game developer's statements are not true and having 40 years of game developing experience does not make him qualified to take about education. With the common core garbage being taught in US public schools what he said may come true. I think we
are in an age of on-demand in the first world where everything is brought to us in an instance. Patience has decreased and it is reflected in our video games in aedition to other aspects of our lives. I, on the other hand, love games like the Total War series inaddition to games like MWO and Star Citizen.

[Coralld]

Mystere, on 03 August 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

But, hasn't it crossed your mind -- even just a little bit -- that the high occurence of people complaining here about losing streaks is a reflection of the "Everyone's a winner!" child-rearing phenomenon?

It has crossed my mind more than once.

Deathlike, on 03 August 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

In some ways, it's true.

For instance... there is an existence of "helicopter parents", hoping that their "shielding" of their child from failure would help them out in life... but the reality is that people do need to fail, and then be taught "how to deal with it".

I mean, some people still hold onto the belief that every kid should be rewarded (aka, the participation award), when there's clearly those that won 1st in whatever (like Science Fairs or a competition). Recognizing that we should be better (unless that's not actually possible, which is rare but can happen) is the first thing we have to cultivate as a society.

The thing is, the gaming industry itself has dumbed down things quite a bit... particularly in any sort of "achievements system". I mean the current form of our achievements system is kinda lame... oooh, 50 assists, how difficult (50 kills is technically far harder for a newbie). It's really not that meaningful, and in some ways only serves to mock the "completionist" (Death Star anyone?)

It simply DOES NOT replace the need for a tutorial... no matter how PGI seems to not think that's important... since the learning curve is so steep initially for most people that are uninitiated with the MW series in general.

Whatever I guess...

I think you missed the part where I said I did agree on a part of what he said near the start, which I quoted, and plays heavily into what you are saying, so we are on the same page as I agree with you, and Mystere.

[Scratx]

I don't even get what the relevance of the article is to MWO. Can anyone?

(besides, seen way better articles, that one is ****)