15 replies to this topic

[SolasTau]

So... after giving it some thought, I still feel that overall, Clans and IS are well balanced. Certainly more so than I had expected because in TT Clans are literally 'just better.' There's a few outliers here and there-ERL's, half weight LRM racks, things like that. But overall? It's really not that bad...at least in terms of weapons.

Now... I'm going to say something that I know will elicit gasps of shock from some old school TT players. But I want you to consider the overall ramifications for this change, and relatively how small it would actually be rather than piecemeal nerfing every weapon in the game until we achieve "Balance™."

Make everyone use the same tech base for XL engines.

Whether that means Clan engines gain two criticals or IS engines lose two, the playing field would be significantly impacted for a minor change.

Scenario A
Clan XL Engines gain 2 Criticals: Small impact on builds, enormous impact on survivability. The top complaint I hear over and over is how "unkillable" the Timberwolf in particular is. Clan mechs become just as vulnerable as their IS counterparts. For balance purposes, Clan mechs should be allowed to swap engines in this scenario.

Scenario B
IS XL Engines lose 2 Criticals: Small impact on builds, enormous impact on survivability. Potentially could over buff IS lights, but seeing as that segment struggles anyways, I'm not sure that would be "bad." Would be a huge buff to IS mediums and heavies that struggle with choosing survivability over maneuverability, and would be of enormous aid to helping IS Assaults close the fire power gap with Clan mechs while retaining some survivability.

While it's a direct lore violation and all that jazz, I think this is the smallest change that could be made to the game to achieve the greatest result in terms of rough parity.

Thoughts?

[Mcgral18]

Not a fan of this one.

Give proper penalties to losing 20% of your engine and/or give the IS their own 2 slot Light Fusion Engines.

[Lucky Moniker]

Mcgral18, on 17 August 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not a fan of this one.

Give proper penalties to losing 20% of your engine and/or give the IS their own 2 slot Light Fusion Engines.

^^^

[SolasTau]

Mcgral18, on 17 August 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not a fan of this one.

Give proper penalties to losing 20% of your engine and/or give the IS their own 2 slot Light Fusion Engines.

I'll counter you and state that we're talking about the same people who are unwilling to put a scaling heat penalty in their game, which is in direct violation of how mechs work.

This is a tiny change that is easily understood by anyone with enormous ramifications as opposed to the changes that have been made so far which are poorly documented, poorly understood, and arguably poorly implemented (ghost heat, various weapon buffs and nerfs, yada yada). For the record, I'd be cool with the Light Fusion Engine too...along with the rest of the 3058 gear and mechs. Or is Light Fusion more 3070 tech? Doesn't matter, the further we go, the more vicious the tech gets.

Edited by SolasTau, 17 August 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Mcgral18]

SolasTau, on 17 August 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'll counter you and state that we're talking about the same people who are unwilling to put a scaling heat penalty in their game, which is in direct violation of how mechs work.

This is a tiny change that is easily understood by anyone with enormous ramifications as opposed to the changes that have been made so far which are poorly documented, poorly understood, and arguably poorly implemented (ghost heat, various weapon buffs and nerfs, yada yada). For the record, I'd be cool with the Light Fusion Engine too...along with the rest of the 3058 gear and mechs. Or is Light Fusion more 3070 tech? Doesn't matter, the further we go, the more vicious the tech gets.

Gimping the Cute Fox, Peace Dove and Badder further isn't the greatest idea either.


You can't swap out xCL engines, making them the same as IS doesn't quite work. Making all isXLs 2 slots doesn't fit lore, which isn't the biggest deal breaker, but as you said will make some mechs quite hard to kill. I'd prefer the 75% weight LFE.


Though I do wonder how they'll implement MRMs...since we already have them in game, assuming we get 3058 stuff.

[Dirus Nigh]

I was very critical about clan mechs not being able to change their engines when PGI announced this limitation. I have sense come to the conclusion that it was a good idea.

The problem is that their is now draw back to losing a side torso in a clan mech. There needs to be a consequence, other than losing that torso side, and arm with the equipment in it. In comparison an IS mech is destroyed when it loses it's XL engine.

To balance this out the clans need a consequence for losing two engine slots while still maintaining the survivability. When a mech takes damage to an engine slot most of the damage is stripping away the heat shielding and internal heat sinks. So I think the first step in balancing the difference in clan engines is to add a 10-12% heat dissipation penalty to the cooling systems of the mech.

Another idea is to add a flat 10-12 point base heat to the heat scale that cannot be cooled off. A combination of the two ideas might be doable as well.

edit:
Second suggestion.
If the heat penalty is not enough implement a 10% speed reduction to the top speed, acceleration, and deceleration.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 17 August 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 17 August 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not a fan of this one.

Give proper penalties to losing 20% of your engine and/or give the IS their own 2 slot Light Fusion Engines.

Fixed that for you.

[EgoSlayer]

How about just joining the already much larger thread on the same page:
http://mwomercs.com/...or-the-clan-xl/

Instead of creating a duplicate?

[orcrist86]

This had come up before. The general consensus is that engine crits need to count. Though the exact effect is debated I feel that a hybrid of TT rules on this and common sense should prevail. Engine hits should reduce speed and increase heat. I think a reduction in damage to energy based weapons would also be a good effect.
Many people are trying to level the field with their model, but that is the wrong approach. The system should create both diversity and a suitable risk. By implementing a real crier system for engines clans lose some of their tank ability and is get a further differentiation to their engines

[SolasTau]

EgoSlayer, on 17 August 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

How about just joining the already much larger thread on the same page

>.>

I'm sorry, I hadn't realized I was required to fill out form 23-P to make sure there wasn't a duplicate thread.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 17 August 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Not a fan of this one.

Give proper penalties to losing 20% of your engine and/or give the IS their own 2 slot Light Fusion Engines.

Well, outside of proper penalties (heatsink penalty of some sort with slower top speed).. we can't have those those engines.

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light - released in 3052 3062...

Also, you'd also immediately make me poorer than Blake.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 August 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 17 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Well, outside of proper penalties (heatsink penalty of some sort with slower top speed).. we can't have those those engines.

http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light - released in 3052...

Also, you'd also immediately make me poorer than Blake.

With how much PGI has destroyed lore, I think adjusting the timeline a little shouldn't hurt too much.

[waterfowl]

christ ... god forbid we have asymmetrical balance in a videogame.

This is why we can't have nice games anymore. People can't handle asymmetry. Look at what freaking happened to WoW and Planetside 2 .... all asymmetry flushed down the drain because people didn't like being unique, they were too short sighted to see their advantages; they could only see their disadvantages.

HTFU. If it really bothers you that much that the enemy has an advantage that you don't have, go buy a pinball machine or something

Edited by waterfowl, 17 August 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 17 August 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

With how much PGI has destroyed lore, I think adjusting the timeline a little shouldn't hurt too much.

Well, we're doing the time warp again (literally and figuratively).

[El Bandito]

waterfowl, on 17 August 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

christ ... god forbid we have asymmetrical balance in a videogame. This is why we can't have nice games anymore. People can't handle asymmetry. Look at what freaking happened to WoW and Planetside 2 .... all asymmetry flushed down the drain because people didn't like being unique, they were too short sighted to see their advantages; they could only see their disadvantages. HTFU. If it really bothers you that much that the enemy has an advantage that you don't have, go buy a pinball machine or something

Asymmetry is fine. Imbalance is not.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

A better, bigger thread about this that also provides a lot of the info you would need.

Just gonna leave this here.....