23 replies to this topic

[zazz0000]

I got a lengthy debate going on with my buddy about how LBX delivers damage to exposed internals. Most sources are a bit ambiguously worded, so we can't really come to an agreement.

As per smurfy's on LB 10-X: "This weapon has an increased crit chance and additional damage. + 14% chance to do 2.00 dmg, + 8% chance to do 4.00 dmg, + 3% chance to do 6.00 dmg"

My understanding is that the pellets do standard damage (1.00 dmg) to internal structure, with additional chance to damage equipment/weapons by a damage factor of 2/4/6, depending on the roll.

His understanding is that the 2/4/6 damage applies to internal structure, or something along those lines.

Could anyone elaborate exactly how this works? Specifically, what damage is propagated to internal structure, and what to equipment?

[Sephlock]

*edit*

Deathlike said it best.

Edited by Sephlock, 18 August 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Deathlike]

zazz0000, on 18 August 2014 - 06:59 PM, said:

I got a lengthy debate going on with my buddy about how LBX delivers damage to exposed internals. Most sources are a bit ambiguously worded, so we can't really come to an agreement.

As per smurfy's on LB 10-X: "This weapon has an increased crit chance and additional damage. + 14% chance to do 2.00 dmg, + 8% chance to do 4.00 dmg, + 3% chance to do 6.00 dmg"

My understanding is that the pellets do standard damage (1.00 dmg) to internal structure, with additional chance to damage equipment/weapons by a damage factor of 2/4/6, depending on the roll.

His understanding is that the 2/4/6 damage applies to internal structure, or something along those lines.

Could anyone elaborate exactly how this works? Specifically, what damage is propagated to internal structure, and what to equipment?

Your friend is incorrect.

Take the case of the MG, since crits and MGs are synonymous with each other.

The extra damage is dealt to the components in the exposed section of armor.. like DHS, Med Laser, etc.

However, in turn, the damage is converted BACK into actual internal damage to that section... IIRC it is 15% worth. So, that means a PPC doing 10 damage, possibly generates a crit, and does 11.5 damage instead. An AC20 doing 20 damage generates a crit, and does 23 damage when that occurs.

Note that EVEN if there isn't anything in that section (like say the Centurion's Left arm), the damage is still converted into internal damage for that section of armor when the external armor is exposed.

I hope this clears things up. The damage converted by LBX is MINIMAL due to the spread design of the weapon.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 August 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Pretty sure it's the crit damage that gets the 2/4/6 treatment, so 15% of that goes to the IS.

Can't say for sure, though.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 18 August 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Pretty sure it's the crit damage that gets the 2/4/6 treatment, so 15% of that goes to the IS.

Can't say for sure, though.

I remember this for sure. Because Paul.

[Deathlike]

Here's a followup, just because I "love" posting sources.

Here's Paul discussing it back in late July 2013:
http://mwomercs.com/...e-july-30-2013/

Here's the official patch notes that describe said phenomenon:
http://mwomercs.com/...35-06-aug-2013/

Quote

Gameplay
- 15% of critical damage dealt to an exposed 'Mech component will now be directly applied to the internal structure of that component.
- This is only applied to the critical damage done. Base weapon damage is not taken into account.
- Critical damage is not applied through armor.
- Armor must be reduced to 0% before any crit damage is applied to internals.

I hope this concludes the journey of Paul, and your balance dreams/nightmares.

[Nyaruk0]

BNC-3E with doublewelding LBX-10 explains better if you will meet one in game. Be ready for a significant strip-off of you mech.

[Wintersdark]

Nyaruk0, on 18 August 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

BNC-3E with doublewelding LBX-10 explains better if you will meet one in game. Be ready for a significant strip-off of you mech.

ah, yes, the dual lbx10 assault.

The thing you need to understand is that an LBX autocannon is less effective at stripping components than a regular autocannon. PPC, or other 10+ damage weapon. This is because LBX autocannons are just doing typically 2 crit damage per pellet, and not all pellets will hit a target section, nor will they all crit. Even those that do crit will crit random components including indestructible components like engines, gyros, etc.

Weapons like the AC10 or PPC will crit for 10 damage base, and thus destroy components with every crit.

LBX autocannons are not worthless, but they are strictly worse than other regular autocannons.

Machine guns are much better at "crit seeking", if for no other reason that that you're not investing a mountain of tonnage into a weapon that's... Well, bad.

[Voidcrafter]

Wintersdark, on 18 August 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

ah, yes, the dual lbx10 assault.

The thing you need to understand is that an LBX autocannon is less effective at stripping components than a regular autocannon. PPC, or other 10+ damage weapon. This is because LBX autocannons are just doing typically 2 crit damage per pellet, and not all pellets will hit a target section, nor will they all crit. Even those that do crit will crit random components including indestructible components like engines, gyros, etc.

Weapons like the AC10 or PPC will crit for 10 damage base, and thus destroy components with every crit.

LBX autocannons are not worthless, but they are strictly worse than other regular autocannons.

Machine guns are much better at "crit seeking", if for no other reason that that you're not investing a mountain of tonnage into a weapon that's... Well, bad.

For me the best clan's weapon currently is LBX20.
Spread or no spread - it's the closest thing the clans have to IS AC20, not to mention that even if you cut what I've said it's still a really good weapond and it's something unique for clanners only.
I wasn't LBX lover before mouting one on my Timbie but I certanly am now.
Though LBX10 still seems to be obsolete if not "boated".

Either way - from point blank range it is supa powerful and if you know the game enough to be in a point blank range when you want it the way you want it - that should be your primary choice.
It makes internals go away even from ~400<-->500m which kicks some range to your brawlah build.
For me it's a no brainer - if I feel like brawling I put one.
Tried missiles, CUAC20s, CUAC10s, 5s - nothing beats it. Nothing.
Cause it's THAT good.

[Reno Blade]

Wintersdark, on 18 August 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

ah, yes, the dual lbx10 assault.

The thing you need to understand is that an LBX autocannon is less effective at stripping components than a regular autocannon. PPC, or other 10+ damage weapon. This is because LBX autocannons are just doing typically 2 crit damage per pellet, and not all pellets will hit a target section, nor will they all crit. Even those that do crit will crit random components including indestructible components like engines, gyros, etc.

Weapons like the AC10 or PPC will crit for 10 damage base, and thus destroy components with every crit.

LBX autocannons are not worthless, but they are strictly worse than other regular autocannons.

Machine guns are much better at "crit seeking", if for no other reason that that you're not investing a mountain of tonnage into a weapon that's... Well, bad.

While big-hit weapons do that, your LBX/MG/Laser will have many more small hits that have a chance to crit.
In case of LBX, the 10 bulltes have a higher chance to crit (see posts above) and higher damage when critting.
This leads to possible 20-60 crit damage to compared 10 of a AC10 /PPC.
with 10 bullets instead of one, and the higher the chance to get crits, the average amount of crit damage for LBX10 is way higher, even if you only hit with 5-6 pellets in that section.

Ofc. it depends on the number of components in the section and the LBX may spread its damage around more than a AC10/PPC crit, but it crits more often and for more damage.
e.g. 3 volleys with ac10 will maybe destroy one DHS or one weapons, but 3 volleys of LBX10 will destroy 2-4 weapons (average).

Edited by Reno Blade, 19 August 2014 - 01:51 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Voidcrafter, on 18 August 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

For me the best clan's weapon currently is LBX20.
Spread or no spread - it's the closest thing the clans have to IS AC20, not to mention that even if you cut what I've said it's still a really good weapond and it's something unique for clanners only.
I wasn't LBX lover before mouting one on my Timbie but I certanly am now.
Though LBX10 still seems to be obsolete if not &quot;boated&quot;.

Either way - from point blank range it is supa powerful and if you know the game enough to be in a point blank range when you want it the way you want it - that should be your primary choice.
It makes internals go away even from ~400&lt;-->500m which kicks some range to your brawlah build.
For me it's a no brainer - if I feel like brawling I put one.
Tried missiles, CUAC20s, CUAC10s, 5s - nothing beats it. Nothing.
Cause it's THAT good.

Clans are different, because there are no big hit weapons. I'm talking LBX vs regular autocannons.

Even so, don't kid yourself. The LBX20 is _laughably_ inferior to the AC20. Higher crit chance doesn't even begin to compensate for wildly spread damage (hit all of a medium/small mech at 150m instead of a target component). Not even close. At least the UAC20 _can_ put all its damage in a single location... But clan autocannons are all substantially inferior to IS autocannons.

The other problem with an LBX20 is that the increased crit chance matters less because you're hitting someone with a 20 point strike - you're destroying mech sections so fast, the components don't matter.

Crit matters with a machine gun, because there's a very real chance that your engagement window will be too short to allow you to destroy the component.

Another failing of an LBX autocannon, clan or IS, is that a FLD weapon that does _any_ damage through armor still does full crit damage. A single PPC that hits a section with 9.5 armour remaining can still do 10/20/30 crit damage, possibly destroying three components. Also, range falloff doesn't affect crit damage, so a PPC hitting an exposed component at a range where it does only 1 damage still does 10/20/30 crit damage. (These effects are easy to test)

[Reno Blade]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Clans are different, because there are no big hit weapons. I'm talking LBX vs regular autocannons.

Even so, don't kid yourself. The LBX20 is _laughably_ inferior to the AC20. Higher crit chance doesn't even begin to compensate for wildly spread damage (hit all of a medium/small mech at 150m instead of a target component). Not even close. At least the UAC20 _can_ put all its damage in a single location... But clan autocannons are all substantially inferior to IS autocannons.

The other problem with an LBX20 is that the increased crit chance matters less because you're hitting someone with a 20 point strike - you're destroying mech sections so fast, the components don't matter.

Crit matters with a machine gun, because there's a very real chance that your engagement window will be too short to allow you to destroy the component.

Another failing of an LBX autocannon, clan or IS, is that a FLD weapon that does _any_ damage through armor still does full crit damage. A single PPC that hits a section with 9.5 armour remaining can still do 10/20/30 crit damage, possibly destroying three components. Also, range falloff doesn't affect crit damage, so a PPC hitting an exposed component at a range where it does only 1 damage still does 10/20/30 crit damage. (These effects are easy to test)

That last paragraph is a fair and strong point.
But I'd say that this is actually a bug and should be changed.

[Voidcrafter]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Clans are different, because there are no big hit weapons. I'm talking LBX vs regular autocannons.

Even so, don't kid yourself. The LBX20 is _laughably_ inferior to the AC20. Higher crit chance doesn't even begin to compensate for wildly spread damage (hit all of a medium/small mech at 150m instead of a target component). Not even close. At least the UAC20 _can_ put all its damage in a single location... But clan autocannons are all substantially inferior to IS autocannons.

The other problem with an LBX20 is that the increased crit chance matters less because you're hitting someone with a 20 point strike - you're destroying mech sections so fast, the components don't matter.

Crit matters with a machine gun, because there's a very real chance that your engagement window will be too short to allow you to destroy the component.

Another failing of an LBX autocannon, clan or IS, is that a FLD weapon that does _any_ damage through armor still does full crit damage. A single PPC that hits a section with 9.5 armour remaining can still do 10/20/30 crit damage, possibly destroying three components. Also, range falloff doesn't affect crit damage, so a PPC hitting an exposed component at a range where it does only 1 damage still does 10/20/30 crit damage. (These effects are easy to test)

Either way - I'll take LBX20 every time over the CUAC20.
Even if they share the same range - I would have to disagree that CUAC20 is better in terms of precission.
If you wanna run some tests for the phract of it - try dueling with a light/fast medium mech with both of the weapons - I'm quite certain that you'll be surprised how more accurate the LBX is and how much more damage you're doing overall cause of that precission.
That brust fire is just a no-go for that sort of fights - also - for a snapshot fights too. And not to mention that even if your target is 400m away LBX20 has a kinda low spread - so you'll be able to hit wherever you like if you know the weapon and you know how.
Not to mention it produces less heat, even if it has the same weight, which always gives you more options about the rest of the weapons.

Also - LBX20 critticals really matter - I ordinary jump on the big guys since I don't trust my team mates to make the job done - you'll really feel a difference there when engaging a WHK or DWFs - atlai included too.
The way it makes internal structure just go away actually makes it better in my eyes, even compared to IS AC20 - and I don't say this lightly - I am playing mainly with ballistics since I started this game - I for one was no LBX lover and I was dualing UAC5s before it was even cool.

It's still a manner of different opinions though
What you missed to point out is that the LBX20 shot travels far more quickly than the (IS)AC20 one.
Oh and another thing --> legs!
That weapon thought me how effective the shooting in the legs could be.
And btw - I'm certain that even if you think about it you'll agree with me that a point blank shot from the LBX20 is, if not better, pretty much the same as a point blank shot from AC20.
And(in my opinion) better than UAC20 - just because even if you're at point blank, the MS time between the brusts are making even the slightest movement of your target quite a big deal(in terms of hitting the same location).

Btw when I recieved my clan mechs I really wanted to make UAC20 to work - I still kinda do - but to be honest I see no reason to pick it instead of my LBX20 - not to mention that if you count it as your main source of firepower you can actually free 1 ton of space for not picking targeting comp.(which I always do otherwise), which, even if doesn't sounds like that, is a good thing

[Zyllos]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

Another failing of an LBX autocannon, clan or IS, is that a FLD weapon that does _any_ damage through armor still does full crit damage. A single PPC that hits a section with 9.5 armour remaining can still do 10/20/30 crit damage, possibly destroying three components. Also, range falloff doesn't affect crit damage, so a PPC hitting an exposed component at a range where it does only 1 damage still does 10/20/30 crit damage. (These effects are easy to test)

I still keep seeing this statement but I do not see verifiable data to conclude that if a weapon does at least 0.1 damage to the Internal Structure and a critical hit happens, it deals full critical damage of the weapon.

[101011]

Zyllos, on 19 August 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

I still keep seeing this statement but I do not see verifiable data to conclude that if a weapon does at least 0.1 damage to the Internal Structure and a critical hit happens, it deals full critical damage of the weapon.

Well, take a PPC, go on to Alpine Peaks, and test it yourself. It is not that difficult to do.

[Zyllos]

101011, on 19 August 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Well, take a PPC, go on to Alpine Peaks, and test it yourself. It is not that difficult to do.

Your right. But if it's that easy, then why isn't the evidence immediately present?

[CygnusX7]

2AC2/LB10Xylophone 'Hawk is the best of both worlds.. 3 worlds if you include JJ's.
Peg away at them for the first half of the match and then Xylophone them to death.

Edited by CygnusX7, 19 August 2014 - 06:35 AM.

[Deathlike]

Zyllos, on 19 August 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

I still keep seeing this statement but I do not see verifiable data to conclude that if a weapon does at least 0.1 damage to the Internal Structure and a critical hit happens, it deals full critical damage of the weapon.

TBH, I'm unsure of the latter... but the former is definitely true. If the hit would normally remove your external armor in that section, it does full crit damage when the crit is generated. It happens very often with PPC/AC10/AC20/Gauss fire when it opens your armor up.

[Wintersdark]

Zyllos, on 19 August 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

I still keep seeing this statement but I do not see verifiable data to conclude that if a weapon does at least 0.1 damage to the Internal Structure and a critical hit happens, it deals full critical damage of the weapon.

It probably is a bug, it definitely should be changes, but that's absolutely the case.

Its easy to test, is obviously evident. Strip armor with a relatively non-critting weapon like a small laser. Move to extreme (but still damaging range), fire. You may need to test multiple times (because random crit chances) but I've destroyed two separate internal items with a single PPC blast at very extreme range, and I've repeated that. Even if you get three crits, at extreme range all three hitting even one component is insufficient to destroy it, but two? Impossible otherwise.

This is exactly how it works, and has since (in my personal verification) the start of open beta. Presumably since day one.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

TBH, I'm unsure of the latter... but the former is definitely true. If the hit would normally remove your external armor in that section, it does full crit damage when the crit is generated. It happens very often with PPC/AC10/AC20/Gauss fire when it opens your armor up.

the later is true. I've tested it personally several times and video has been made (not mine, though, so I don't have a link on hand). Its really easy to test, though.