80 replies to this topic

[Ph30nix]

Thorqemada, on 19 August 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

No - i see again Pilots arming up with 3x and 4x ERPPC and the PPC is already low heat for its damage.

first im not saying cut their heat to zero or anything,
second there is already ghost heat on PPC's/ERPPCs so there wont be any more increase in their use then we already have. Frankly there are ALREADY people using 2x PPCs

anyways the major heat increase on PPCs was to offset their range/speed combo, well the speed is now gone so a slight heat decrease is NOT out of the question.


as far as clan, their weapons with minor exceptions are in a good place, their weight already gives them massive advantages and their insane range on their lasers means they arent hurt by slower/hotter ERPPCS

IS on the other hand is kind of hurting in the range deparment, not horribly and they do have their ballistics but again a tweak to PPC's would give more options and help alot

Mystere, on 19 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Well, then, I have an even better idea. Why not keep things as is?



<Why do I have this nagging feeling that "balance" is really not the objective?>

because IS does need some help in departments, so options are to REVERSE some of the IS nerfs or to Nerf clans.
or a combo of both.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kevjack, on 19 August 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

IS ERPPC heat should be no higher than 12.

IS ERPPC has always been higher than 12... The heat is 15!

Sorry... I thought I put ER in that when I posted it originally!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 August 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[Errant Variable]

I really don't mind that PPCs are no longer more or less hitscan within their full-damage range. It's definitely stopped Alpine from being an "unceasing rain of blue death from whoever gets the uphill spawn" sort of event. The increasing presence of near-misses at range also gives a tracers-overhead tension to longer range fights that you don't really get with "step out from behind rock, get hit". Decreasing per-shot heat would just turn it back into "unceasing rain of death" but more biased towards lots of shots done badly, and those who do well with PPCs would do extraordinarily well. If anything was changed, I would advocate for raising the ghost heat threshold to 3 (yes, this would make running 4 ERPPCs on a perfectly optimized build viable in that you can pull the trigger and not immediately shut down, but you're also not going to do that more than twice a minute for a whopping 1.33 DPS.

[MischiefSC]

Ppc heat was always where its at now. It was lowered when you couldnt register a hit with them. Now its fixed so the massive heat and speed buff has been removed.

[Red1769]

Mystere, on 19 August 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Well, then, I have an even better idea. Why not keep things as is?
<Why do I have this nagging feeling that "balance" is really not the objective when it comes to the Clans?>

Because the Clan version is superior to the IS's version right now (same PP FLD damage of 10, same heat, less crits, less weight, small amount of splash damage (a neglible advantage, but one none the less), and same range. The IS version has zero advantages over the clan version, and it needed help before the clans already) . That's why I suggested the small buffs to the IS's ERPPC, to make it comparable with the Clan's. The standard is fine, people will get over it's projectile speed nerf, that thing is a medium ranged PP FLD weapon anyway, you shouldn't have been sniping with it. The ER version needs some help, though. Only time you ever really see it is on light mechs and that's their only weapon. At least in my experience, and they didn't do very well with them, your's may be different.

Not sure if you look back on my posts, but I am against nerfing the Clans into the ground, but I also realize there are some weapons/mech (yes, singular) that need some tweaks, because they're outliers. So don't be making any assumptions, bud. The Clan ER LL got the wrong tweak of an extended beam duration when it should have been to either damage or range...I don't want to see that type of giganerf on other weapons, especially ones that don't need it. I also want the Clans to keep their unique flavor.

If there is one thing we'll agree on, based on that comment, is that we have the same goal of not having the Clans be giganerfed into obsoletion. So don't be mistaking me as one of those people that want them to be a non-issue.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

I feel PPCs are perfect now. They require skill to lead your target, and the right amount of heat for a weapon of that range/damage with unlimited ammo.

[Mystere]

Red1769, on 19 August 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

If there is one thing we'll agree on, based on that comment, is that we have the same goal of not having the Clans be giganerfed into obsoletion. So don't be mistaking me as one of those people that want them to be a non-issue.

Nope. Your post was a just a springboard for expressing my angst with regard to these endless calls for nerfs.

Edited by Mystere, 19 August 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Carrie Harder, on 19 August 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

At least for the ER version, because it's kinda meant to be good at long range (hence the "extended range" tag it has).

It's still good at long range; the only difference is that they removed the "easy" button and you actually have to have a modicum of skill to use it now.

Good snipers know how to lead their target and account for environmental variables and range; this closer approximates that much more than the insta-zap PPFLD weapon it was before.

[Red1769]

Mystere, on 19 August 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Nope. Your post was a just a springboard for expressing my angst with regard to these endless calls for nerfs.

Lol...Fair enough. And well played.

[Lightfoot]

PPC is slower than the AC10, hotter than the AC10, recharge almost twice as long as the AC10, weighs almost the same with DHS to run it. Why does the PPC have a minimum range still? What kind of balance is that? Can't we get past the GunWarrior mono-vision thing for just a few moments?

Either restore the PPC's speed or dump the minimum range. There is no excuse to not take action on this.

[Lightfoot]

Bhael Fire, on 19 August 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It's still good at long range; the only difference is that they removed the "easy" button and you actually have to have a modicum of skill to use it now.

Good snipers know how to lead their target and account for environmental variables and range; this closer approximates that much more than the insta-zap PPFLD weapon it was before.

Show me. Because so far all the videos of the new PPC/ERPPC show the so-called experts missing 90 percent of the time at anything over about 400 meters unless the target is standing still or coming nearly straight at them.

Also see my post above. Why is it okay for big PPFLD ballistics like the AC10 to travel faster, run 3.3x cooler, recharge almost twice as fast, but the PPC has a minimum range and Ballistics do not?

Restore the PPCs speed and fix the Gauss Rifle in some other way than a PPC nerf.

MWO's problem remains that the Mechs are too weak to withstand the damage from 2xRecharge weapons, but PGI's only reaction is to nerf energy weapons.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 August 2014 - 07:13 PM.

[MischiefSC]

No ballistic drop.

You don't need 5 DHS per PPC extra plus an extra 3 DHS to account for AC10 ammo, so no. It's about 1/2 the weight actually.

Also 3 slots vs 7.

Same speed as ERPPC, difference is 1/10th of a second at 1km away vs regular PPC.

Unlimited ammo.

ECM disruption.

You can boat PPCs, can't boat AC10s. You can carry 2 PPCs plus other primary weapons; if you have 2 AC10s that's your primary weapons.

So... PPC heat, speed, range is all fine.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

So we finally get ppcs balanced and then want them buffed to the uber levels they were at during the peak ppc meta.

No. Dear god no. They are hot because ppfld is vastly better than dot. Tell you what - give ac10 100 shots per ton and the same speed. Remove ballistic drop. Give it ecm disruption.

Only then it would be out of balance, right?

I think you are overestimating current PPCs, and underestimating ER LLAS.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 19 August 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

I think you are overestimating current PPCs, and underestimating ER LLAS.

I see PPCs used effectively all the time still. ERLLs still less so. ERLLs are almost the same heat but do DOT vs PPFLD, which is a huge disadvantage. They make up for it with less tonnage and space and hitscan. It's a good balance.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I see PPCs used effectively all the time still. ERLLs still less so. ERLLs are almost the same heat but do DOT vs PPFLD, which is a huge disadvantage. They make up for it with less tonnage and space and hitscan. It's a good balance.

http://www.twitch.tv/mwopro/c/4908290

Skip to 11:20 - you'll see those ER LLAS used effectively to kite PPC load outs.

You might not see it in the queues yet, but my opinion is we will slowly see a shift towards ER LLAS on more builds, where PPC was previously.

Less tonnage is putting it mildly.

You can get 2x ER LLAS + 4 DHS for the price of 2x PPCs
Or you can get 3x ER LLAS for 1 ton more than 2x PPCs.

No min range
Better maximum range
Hitscan
Cooler at base, and even cooler with more DHS


The ER PPC is even worse. 15 heat for "extended range" where hitting anything beyond 600m is laughable, as targets can pretty much dodge at will unless you are able to blindside them. (I say this having dodged them repeatedly at this point)

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 August 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

No ballistic drop.

You don't need 5 DHS per PPC extra plus an extra 3 DHS to account for AC10 ammo, so no. It's about 1/2 the weight actually.

Also 3 slots vs 7.

Same speed as ERPPC, difference is 1/10th of a second at 1km away vs regular PPC.

Unlimited ammo.

ECM disruption.

You can boat PPCs, can't boat AC10s. You can carry 2 PPCs plus other primary weapons; if you have 2 AC10s that's your primary weapons.

So... PPC heat, speed, range is all fine.

Get off it man. ACs are not affected by Ghost Heat getting a whopping 3 heat penalty max unless an AC20, you can easily boat ACs at any time, see the Cataphract and Jagermech. You also conveniently forget that the two PPCs are actually cooled by 12 DHS, 10 of which are engine DHS 2.0's. Those 10 Engine DHS 2.0's also give ballistic boats free cooling, but adding a third PPC will require 18 DHS and even then the mech will shutdown soon from overheat.

You are just making stuff up so I am done with your post. However, Battle Tech says PPCs disrupt all electronic systems on the mech including target and HUD. Lucky for you PGI can't handle Battle Tech.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 19 August 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

I see PPCs used effectively all the time still. ERLLs still less so. ERLLs are almost the same heat but do DOT vs PPFLD, which is a huge disadvantage. They make up for it with less tonnage and space and hitscan. It's a good balance.

No, PPCs are brawling weapons now only accurate at under 350 meters on moving targets, Lasers are much more accurate now and do more damage for less heat.

I have been running the AWS-8Q with lasers and PPCs for the past two weeks so I have a very accurate view of before and after nerf functionality. Oddly, my AWS-8Q started getting more kills with a laser heavy loadout after the nerf than it did with 3xPPCs before the nerf.

I guess I am annoyed by the non-logic of the nerf. PPCs still have the minimum range, but ACs do not, when ACs are so OP in MWO you are justified in calling MWO GunWarrior.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 August 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why is it okay for big PPFLD ballistics like the AC10 to travel faster, run 3.3x cooler, recharge almost twice as fast, but the PPC has a minimum range and Ballistics do not?

Because an AC10 weighs over twice as much, takes up three times more crit slots with ammo, uses ammo, AND you cant have two AC10s in the same location since theyre 7 crit slots, so most ballistic mechs cant even take more than one AC10. While just about any mech in the game can easily take two PPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 19 August 2014 - 07:47 PM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 19 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Because an AC10 weighs over twice as much, takes up three times more crit slots with ammo, uses ammo, AND you cant have two AC10s in the same location since theyre 7 crit slots, so most ballistic mechs cant even take more than one AC10. While just about any mech in the game can easily take two PPCs.

You might have noticed there is a difference in heat generation, and a 90m minimum range.


With all of those drawbacks, the 30 point midrange CTF with AC 10/PPC combo runs 2x AC 10s usually and not 2x PPCs.

Because AC 10s are cooler, and therefore sustainable DPS.

[Lightfoot]

Khobai, on 19 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Because an AC10 weighs over twice as much, takes up three times more crit slots with ammo, uses ammo, AND you cant have two AC10s in the same location since theyre 7 crit slots, so most ballistic mechs cant even take more than one AC10. While just about any mech in the game can easily take two PPCs.

So what? Lot's of Mechs can't take any ballistics at all. They rely on the PPC to work!! PPCs use lots more slots than Ballistics if you include the 6xDHS required to run them (based on you need 18 DHS to run 3xPPCs minimally, it still shuts down on any map). So lets see if you just count those 6 DHS, PPCs are 9 tons each, count the engine DHS they are 13 tons each. To fit 18 DHS in a mech you have either Endo or an XL, more than 18 you have to have an XL with standard internals.

So it's pretty much an even break, restore the PPC speed or get rid of the minimum range.