522 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

El Bandito, on 19 August 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

...and worst Clan mechs are still better than worst IS mechs.

I'm curious as to what the "worst" IS mechs are in your eyes 'cause I'd take my a Locust or Trollmando over an Adder or Kit Fox any day of the week. and pretty much any IS medium or heavy can take a Summoner 1 v 1.

[Aresye]

NonCedo, on 19 August 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

What was the win ration for clan verse IS? It was around 90% or so, listen, once again, I know you pro clan don't want to attribute that win to equipment. But gee, I guess if our IS piloting skills are so feeble, we might need to even things out somehow, just so it stays fun. Maybe 2 to 1 in our favor might be fair once cw goes live. What do you say?

Imagine you have a car race. One car goes 5mph faster than the other cars, but while that advantage is relatively minor, in the end the car that's 5mph faster ends up winning 90% of all the races. Why? Because it's an advantage. Nobody with a sound mind is going to disagree that Clan mechs have advantages over IS mechs. PGI wanted them to have advantages, although they didn't want the advantages to be easy to get.

Back to the race cars. How do you balance that car? You start by looking at where it's advantages lie, and slowly tweak them down. In this car's case, it's only 5mph faster than the other cars. You don't take away the power steering to give it some random disadvantage that does nothing to solve the fact that it's 5mph faster. You look at where the problem lies (speed), and adjust it slowly (1-2mph increments) down until it's now balanced with the other cars.

What most people are advocating when it comes to Clan mechs is they look at the statistic and go, "OMG Clans are SO OP! 90%? DEAR GOD! NERF THEM HARD!" It could very well be Clans have a relatively minor advantage that's just enough to upset the balance. All 90% says is that there's an imbalance. It DOES NOT say how much of an imbalance there is, nor the source of the imbalance.

What would happen if the judges for the car race saw that one car was winning 90% of the races, freaked out, and decided to make it go 40mph slower. Now the car is winning 0% of the races, and another imbalance was created. That's the very thing that keeps happening repeatedly to this game. Did nerfing the CERLL or CERPPC do ANYTHING to balance out Clan mechs? Nope. All it did was make those weapons unfun to use. That's the reason why IS mechs suck so bad. They've been the target of the nerfinator for a much longer time, and now only a select few IS chassis are even competitive.

[El Bandito]

HlynkaCG, on 19 August 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

I'm curious as to what the "worst" IS mechs are in your eyes 'cause I'd take my a Locust or Trollmando over an Adder or Kit Fox any day of the week. and pretty much any IS medium or heavy can take a Summoner 1 v 1.

SDR-5V. RVN-2X. Argue against that fact all you want cause you would be wrong.

I have yet to see an IS Medium or Heavy that is not a Boom Jager beating my SRM boat A1 at 1v1. I highly doubt they can beat the Summoner with similar config, but that issue will be settled in September soon enough.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 August 2014 - 09:24 PM.

[Mystere]

Kay Wolf, on 19 August 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

No, the Clan 'Mechs are stronger, faster, shoot further, and do it cooler ...

Unless I am shown something like this:

Mystere, on 06 August 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

How about a comprehensive end-to-end analysis to prove your statement, including, but not limited to, the following:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• time and spatial-based dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

(or, hell, even just any good scientific analysis), I just ain't buying your words.

Edited by Mystere, 19 August 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[Jeb]

Aresye, on 19 August 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Imagine you have a car race. One car goes 5mph faster than the other cars, but while that advantage is relatively minor, in the end the car that's 5mph faster ends up winning 90% of all the races. Why? Because it's an advantage. Nobody with a sound mind is going to disagree that Clan mechs have advantages over IS mechs. PGI wanted them to have advantages, although they didn't want the advantages to be easy to get.

Back to the race cars. How do you balance that car? You start by looking at where it's advantages lie, and slowly tweak them down. In this car's case, it's only 5mph faster than the other cars. You don't take away the power steering to give it some random disadvantage that does nothing to solve the fact that it's 5mph faster. You look at where the problem lies (speed), and adjust it slowly (1-2mph increments) down until it's now balanced with the other cars.

What most people are advocating when it comes to Clan mechs is they look at the statistic and go, "OMG Clans are SO OP! 90%? DEAR GOD! NERF THEM HARD!" It could very well be Clans have a relatively minor advantage that's just enough to upset the balance. All 90% says is that there's an imbalance. It DOES NOT say how much of an imbalance there is, nor the source of the imbalance.

What would happen if the judges for the car race saw that one car was winning 90% of the races, freaked out, and decided to make it go 40mph slower. Now the car is winning 0% of the races, and another imbalance was created. That's the very thing that keeps happening repeatedly to this game. Did nerfing the CERLL or CERPPC do ANYTHING to balance out Clan mechs? Nope. All it did was make those weapons unfun to use. That's the reason why IS mechs suck so bad. They've been the target of the nerfinator for a much longer time, and now only a select few IS chassis are even competitive.

nice post the people crying 90% are trying to make it out the clan mechs are way over powered... but they are not... there are some tweaks needed to balance things a bit for sure, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

The Clans dropped with 3x Timberwolves in every one of those matches I bet... where IS would have had a mix of heavies, ranging from Catapults to Cataphrats... the Timberwolves though are at the top of the food chain being 75 tons...

The Clans would also have been Stormcrow heavy... which is a 55 ton Medium... IS may have had Shadowhawks which are also 55 tons, but they may have also had smaller mediums in there...

Direwolf vs Awsome? there is a 20 ton advantage right there...

Odds are the clan teams had more tonnage on their teams, which pre-clans, I always heard was an advantage... Now though, no one seems to care and it's just OMG clans are overpowered...

Edited by Jeb, 19 August 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

KHETTI, on 19 August 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Nova isn't available for C-bills yet.

Wow that took alot of posts to, er... post that!

[Cyborne Elemental]

Aresye, awesome post.

Pgi's (Paul) overreaction to community cryouts, always listening to the "wrong" people, and using balance methods that just do not make much sense is taking the fun out of this game
every
single
patch
where a new balance attempt is incorporated into MWO.

When there are OOODLES of brilliant, well thought-out suggestions and fixes coming out of every corner of this community and it gets ignored.... its just sad to see.

Edited by Mister D, 20 August 2014 - 02:08 AM.

[HlynkaCG]

El Bandito, on 19 August 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

SDR-5V. RVN-2X. Argue against that fact all you want cause you would be wrong.

In practical terms both the SDR-5V and the RVN-2X will display a significant mobility advantage over an Adder or Kit Fox, and equal if not more armor so I don't see that fight being nearly as one-sided as you seem to think it would be. Against any other Spider or Raven variant, fuhgeddaboudit.

Quote

I have yet to see an IS Medium or Heavy that is not a Boom Jager beating my SRM boat A1 at 1v1. I highly doubt they can beat the Summoner with similar config, but that issue will be settled in September soon enough.

Then obviously you haven't been playing against competent opponents or you haven't been playing 1 v 1. A pure SRM boat is a highly situational build that anyone with half a brain and a few weeks of play time will pick pick apart at from > 300m. The Dragon is generally viewed as the weakest of the heavies, and the trial Dragon (2xLL + Gauss) eats SRM boats for breakfast.

[El Bandito]

HlynkaCG, on 19 August 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

In practical terms both the SDR-5V and the RVN-2X will display a significant mobility advantage over an Adder or Kit Fox, and equal if not more armor so I don't see that fight being nearly as one-sided as you seem to think it would be. Against any other Spider or Raven variant, fuhgeddaboudit. Then obviously you haven't been playing against competent opponents or you haven't been playing 1 v 1. A pure SRM boat is a highly situational build that anyone with half a brain and a few weeks of play time will pick pick apart at from > 300m. The Dragon is generally viewed as the weakest of the heavies, and the trial Dragon (2xLL + Gauss) eats SRM boats for breakfast.

Did you just actually defend RVN-2X and SDR-5V? Really? REALLY?

What's the 5V gonna do with the 2 energy slot on the CT? Dance around with a single ERLL? Cause if you want to brawl with dual ML or dual MPL 5V against Clan Lights, that Spider is dead meat in 6 seconds. SSRM4/6 with 360 retention module = GG.

Kitfox and Adder can both field SSRM4/6 in up to four slots, Clan ERML hits harder and has the range equivalent to IS LLaser. There is not even going to be a contest.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 August 2014 - 12:53 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

I m more in IS mechs underway as in Clanmechs.....

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 19 August 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Negative, that is not true...

There are clan warriors...those of us who had to slog through playing IS mechs waiting 2+ years for Clans.

Truthfully, if Clans were not planned to be included, I would have never even played this game...

*whoosh*

[aniviron]

Johnny Reb, on 19 August 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Wow that took alot of posts to, er... post that!

No kidding! OP got my hopes up, I immediately relaunched the game thinking that I'd finally get to pilot one of my favourite chassis from the older games only to find that the Nova is still MC-only.

Mayhap the OP should reconsider his/her initial post, given that the premise upon which it is based is faulty?

[HlynkaCG]

El Bandito, on 20 August 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Did you just actually defend RVN-2X and SDR-5V? Really? REALLY?

Yes, i did.

Quote

What's the 5V gonna do with the 2 energy slot on the CT? Dance around with a single ERLL? Cause if you want to brawl with dual ML or dual MPL 5V against Clan Lights, that Spider is dead meat in 6 seconds. SSRM4/6 with 360 retention module = GG.

RVN-2X has significant mobility advantage? You mean the mere 6 kph difference in speed and complete lack of jumpjets in Raven chassis? That advantage? Boy, I have heard a lot fo BS, but this is a new one.

I don't know where you went to school but but you should ask for a refund because 140.0 - 106.9 does not equal 6. The Raven is a full 33 kph faster than the Adder, and will be able to easily out-range your SSRM4/6 with 360 retention. The Spider is 59.4 kph faster and has jump jets, good luck keeping him in range/LoS. The Adder in this case is the fat kid in a game of keep-away

[El Bandito]

HlynkaCG, on 20 August 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Yes, i did. I don't know where you went to school but but you should ask for a refund because 140.0 - 106.9 does not equal 6. The Raven is a full 33 kph faster than the Adder, and will be able to easily out-range your SSRM4/6 with 360 retention. The Spider is 59.4 kph faster and has jump jets, good luck keeping him in range/LoS. The Adder in this case is the fat kid in a game of keep-away

I was mistaken with the Raven speed, but my point still stands. How do you outrange a Clan mech? You can't. Every energy weapon 2X or 5V can viably field, Clanners got longer version of it. The Clanner does not have to chase anything.

Bottom line is, your continued defense of 5V and 2X--which are horrible beyond doubt--are tiring and illogical. Go ahead, ask any serious Light pilots to pilot them against equally skilled Clanner in a tourney. You will be laughed off.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 August 2014 - 12:56 AM.

[Lupin]

Clan biggest advantage is range, take it away or have a Clan build where you reduce it's range advantage and most of the time they are dead vs. IS Mechs.

[HlynkaCG]

Quote

How do you outrange a Clan mech?

If they're an SSRM boat? Easily. If they aren't the IS pilot actually has a fair shot at beating them in a brawl.

Quote

Bottom line is, your continued defense of 5V and 2X--which are horrible beyond doubt--are tiring and illogical...

You're just angry that the fight isn't as one-sided as you want it to be.

ETA:
Sure I'd rather be in a Lol-cust than a SDV-5V but that doesn't mean I wont make that Spider or Raven work just as hard.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 20 August 2014 - 01:20 AM.

[Will HellFire]

Carrie Harder, on 19 August 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

For the 9000th time, only a handful of the Clan arsenal is "overall better" than the IS. Stop generalizing and saying that every Clan thing is better, because that's wrong. I'll even make a brainstorm list.

...

Maybe some people might categorize it differently, but the overall idea is that NOT ALL CLAN THINGS ARE BETTER THAN THE IS. ONLY A FEW CLAN THINGS ARE BETTER THAN THE IS. PLEASE DO NO GENERALIZE ABOUT CLAN THINGS. THANKS. CAPSLOCK DISENGAGE!

I find this completely unreasonable.

There is only ONE FACTOR that makes ALL CLAN WEAPONRY better than IS:

IT IS LIGHTER....in some cases MUCH LIGHTER.

For the same tonnage, you can fit MORE WEAPONS, in LESS SLOTS, its XL Engines are BETTER (you need to take both side torsos)

That alone makes ALL CLAN MECHS BETTER THAN IS MECHS

[JudgeDeathCZ]

TBH I like and play clans ATM bcuz there are not any IS mech to xp up BUT i can not w8 for vindicator

[Texas Merc]

Do the same people keep arguing in just different threads over and over?

Numero Uno: GET A LIFE

#2: Bad clanners are still bad clanners

Tres: If the other team has more clan mechs when dropping in group queue you are going to lose unless they are super drunk or they are passed out.


addendum: if not tres then #2

Edited by Texas Merc, 20 August 2014 - 01:49 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Spider-5V having 1 of those energy points in the side torso, we would all have had a lot easier time leveling those spiders, and hell, the 5V might actually get some use beyond "because you HAD to play it" and got repeatedly stomped and frustrated over and over.

Its the one change that the mech needs, and probably the easiest for PGI to overlook and just do it for the sake of making it semi-viable instead of leaving it as a garbage mech for the sake of having it lol.

But... why were we talking about the Spider-5V again?