121 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

So after another in a long list of "solo" vs. "groups" I had a thought.


The only difference between "solo" and "group" (I use "" because there's no such thing as "solo" in MWO, you're on a team in a team-based game regardless of whether it's 11 other random teammates or 11 teammates you formed up with prior to launching) is Voip. That's the only advantage group players have over solo players.

That's why the group queue and solo queue were separated. So what happens when Voip is implemented in game (which PGI has stated will get implemented)? If Voip is the sole advantage, what happens when that advantage is made available to all players? Do we no longer need separate queues? Does that makes separate queues "obsolete" at that point?

I'm curious as to the rest of the community's thoughts on this one.

[SirLANsalot]

They should of never been split in the first place. A bunch of cry babies bugged the hell out of PGI and got it implemented. Guess what? The ROFLOL stomps STILL happen in the Public mode, so that must mean the 4 mans were not the cause of the stomps.

Some of the best games I have played were in 4 mans in the Pug que. Being the last 4 mechs standing after watching the rest of the team get smoked (instead of sticking together), and then turning the game around and winning the match. That is what made Pug que so amazing, you could have a great match like that, and then the next one your 4 man gets smoked by either puggers or the other 4 man on the other side.


Might be time to put 4 mans back into the Public que, and go back to what was done when the MM was redone. 4 and under are put into either Public or Group ques. 5-10 get placed into Group only ques. Launching solo you are placed into Public only.
That system WORKED FINE!

[Galenit]

Not only voip.
Experience from playing games together, knowing the playstyle of the others,
knowing the builds, that they will follow you and a lot more matters too.

If you play a lot with the same people, you know their flow and need less to communicate.

A sportsteam can communicate without voip.
But the team that plays often together will still mostly win over a pickup team.
Its not only communication.

Edited by Galenit, 24 August 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[Alexandrix]

Voip isn't the ONLY advantage,Just the most prominent I think.

Don't discount the ability to coordinate mech load outs before hand.LRM+narc/taggers,brawlers,support,ECM,so on and so on.Where as solo players pretty much get whatever the MM decides to throw together for them.It's a roll of the dice rather you end up on the team with 3 ECM+LRM boats....or the team with no ECM what so ever and a bunch of flamer/machine gun dire wolves.

Then again,If ECM wasn't such a stupidly broken jesus box,this wouldn't be such a problem...still a problem...just not as much.

VOIP would help,but it's not the end all be all "fix" for solo/pug vs group/unit.Groups/units will always have something the solo/pug team will usually lack.Assigned leadership and the willingness to follow said leadership.Yes,sometimes you'll get matches where the team will gel well together and everyone flows into a groove with one another,but those matches are the rarity amongst a sea of matches where people would either not listen,not speak,or just out right ignore anyone giving directions out of spite.

All that being said,MWO does NEED built in VOIP.It's a disgrace that MWO doesn't have it in this day and age.

Edited by Alexandrix, 24 August 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[CN9 ACE PILOT]

SirLANsalot, on 24 August 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

They should of never been split in the first place. A bunch of cry babies bugged the hell out of PGI and got it implemented. Guess what? The ROFLOL stomps STILL happen in the Public mode, so that must mean the 4 mans were not the cause of the stomps.

Some of the best games I have played were in 4 mans in the Pug que. Being the last 4 mechs standing after watching the rest of the team get smoked (instead of sticking together), and then turning the game around and winning the match. That is what made Pug que so amazing, you could have a great match like that, and then the next one your 4 man gets smoked by either puggers or the other 4 man on the other side.


Might be time to put 4 mans back into the Public que, and go back to what was done when the MM was redone. 4 and under are put into either Public or Group ques. 5-10 get placed into Group only ques. Launching solo you are placed into Public only.
That system WORKED FINE!

I completely agree with this. Going up against full teams in colors was amazing, even if it was a stomp that's how it should be. A merc unit going up against a well trained company, giving insensitive for pilots to join one and Units be able to promote their strength and recruitment.

There was no satisfaction like a group of merc's taking down a full company of organized trained pilots. It was, in my opinion the most fun there was to be had.

[Sandpit]

Galenit, on 24 August 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Not only voip.
Experience from playing games together, knowing the playstyle of the others,
knowing the builds, that they will follow you and a lot more matters too.

If you play a lot with the same people, you know their flow and need less to communicate.

A sportsteam can communicate without voip.
But the team that plays often together will still mostly win over a pickup team.
Its not only communication.

That's what Elo is for. You play against players at your skill level.
Groups also have their Elo artificially inflated so they can't play against lower-level (Elo wise) players
It could also be handled by having groups only go "up" with the release valves. So when a group is waiting long enough to find a match for the safety valves to kick in, instead of searching in both directions, it only goes up. Meaning instead of the safety valve searching for players in lower Elo ratings, it only searches for players at higher Elo ratings.

Alexandrix, on 24 August 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Voip isn't the ONLY advantage,Just the most prominent I think.

Don't discount the ability to coordinate mech load outs before hand.LRM+narc/taggers,brawlers,support,ECM,so on and so on.Where as solo players pretty much get whatever the MM decides to throw together for them.It's a roll of the dice rather you end up on the team with 3 ECM+LRM boats....or the team with no ECM what so ever and a bunch of flamer/machine gun dire wolves.

Then again,If ECM wasn't such a stupidly broken jesus box,this wouldn't be such a problem...still a problem...just not as much.

VOIP would help,but it's not the end all be all "fix" for solo/pug vs group/unit.Groups/units will always have something the solo/pug team will usually lack.Assigned leadership and the willingness to follow said leadership.Yes,sometimes you'll get matches where the team will gel well together and everyone flows into a groove with one another,but those matches are the rarity amongst a sea of matches where people would either not listen,not speak,or just out right ignore anyone giving directions out of spite.

All that being said,MWO does NEED built in VOIP.It's a disgrace that MWO doesn't have it in this day and age.

Ok, good point, I didn't think about that. Yea, groups have the advantage of being able to set up loadouts that compliment one another. That's a huge advantage as well but that could be countered by some sort of lobby system as well. If all players were dropped into a lobby (like private matches provide) before picking a mech, the entire team could coordinate in the same manner.

[Eglar]

Drop in a 12 man lords premade and then drop Solo, there is your difference. And good luck MM finding the appropriate elo range.

[Budor]

Noone will use it for anything than flaming or playing annoying music over it.

Edit: Please stop posting that nonsense of ELO making sure you drop with players of your skill level. It does not do that, you drop with/against players in a wide range.

Edited by Budor, 24 August 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Sandpit]

Budor, on 24 August 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

Noone will use it for anything than flaming or playing annoying music over it.

Edit: Please stop posting that nonsense of ELO making sure you drop with players of your skill level. It does not do that, you drop with/against players in a wide range.

please stop posting ignorance?
http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

you're set against opponents in a range of Elos close to yours. If none are available after a certain amount of time, that acceptable Elo range is extended.

Please stop trolling the thread. Your opinion on whether or not Elo "works" is no relevant to the topic.

[Roland]

Voip would help solo players, although at this point I don't really see a big problem with giving the solo pugs a choice to play against only other solo groups, if they feel like it.

Although I woud also give solo players the OPTION to play in the "real" queue if they were so inclined, as I know many players would choose to do that.

The idea of a solo queue is fairly standard though.

[Sandpit]

Eglar, on 24 August 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Drop in a 12 man lords premade and then drop Solo, there is your difference. And good luck MM finding the appropriate elo range.

huh?
so what's the difference in your scenario and 3 4mans dropping in that same situation?

[Khobai]

Quote

They should of never been split in the first place.

Maybe not. But if the didnt split the queues they would have to penalize teams somehow.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Voip would help solo players, although at this point I don't really see a big problem with giving the solo pugs a choice to play against only other solo groups, if they feel like it.

Although I woud also give solo players the OPTION to play in the "real" queue if they were so inclined, as I know many players would choose to do that.

The idea of a solo queue is fairly standard though.

Possibly but once the "advantage" of Voip is gone, what's the point?

At that point everyone is on equal footing. There's no "unfair" advantage at that point. There's no gap in tools available for all players.

Khobai, on 24 August 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Maybe not. But if the didnt split the queues they would have to penalize teams somehow.

They already do. Teams have their Elo artificially inflated as a handicap. So they're already penalized. This was done after the queue splits.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

So after another in a long list of "solo" vs. "groups" I had a thought.


The only difference between "solo" and "group" (I use "" because there's no such thing as "solo" in MWO, you're on a team in a team-based game regardless of whether it's 11 other random teammates or 11 teammates you formed up with prior to launching) is Voip. That's the only advantage group players have over solo players.

That's why the group queue and solo queue were separated. So what happens when Voip is implemented in game (which PGI has stated will get implemented)? If Voip is the sole advantage, what happens when that advantage is made available to all players? Do we no longer need separate queues? Does that makes separate queues "obsolete" at that point?

I'm curious as to the rest of the community's thoughts on this one.

There are other advantages:
1) Familiarity with your team mates

2) Coordination of builds and composition.

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

There are other advantages:
1) Familiarity with your team mates

2) Coordination of builds and composition.

1) sorry, that's like saying, "We're entering into this sports tourney this weekend but we only want to play against teams that don't play together very often". You're playing a game with competitive goals. Some teams practice. others don't. I don't see this as a valid reason. When you play ANY kind of team game you willingly and voluntarily put yourself into the position to play against other teams.

2) Yea, that's why I suggested lobbies like what private matches have available so even pick up teams can coordinate what they're taking before launching into the game. That would solve that issue entirely

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Voip would help solo players, although at this point I don't really see a big problem with giving the solo pugs a choice to play against only other solo groups, if they feel like it.

Although I woud also give solo players the OPTION to play in the "real" queue if they were so inclined, as I know many players would choose to do that.

The idea of a solo queue is fairly standard though.

They would need to be OK with it according to the DEVs for CW. CW was laid out being groups with PUG/Lone Wolf support filling in the gaps. It wasn't Lone Wolfs fighting the Clan invasion it was unified armies with Merc support. And that part of the game needs to be Group oriented not PUG haven.

[Eglar]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

huh?
so what's the difference in your scenario and 3 4mans dropping in that same situation?

Matchmaker can not compensate so you get some random guys as opponents. Dropping as a 4 man leaves your team more margin for "bad teammates", "roleplay-stockmech", "hollanderfirestarterplayers". Of course Voip and other stuff makes a difference but if you get to pick your teammates and happen to pick from a pool of superior players what happens is that you will win. it's simple like that.

I remember dropping last time with a 12 man lords premade was more about "let's try to beat them under 3 minutes" rather than "let's win"

Edited by Eglar, 24 August 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

1) sorry, that's like saying, "We're entering into this sports tourney this weekend but we only want to play against teams that don't play together very often". You're playing a game with competitive goals. Some teams practice. others don't. I don't see this as a valid reason. When you play ANY kind of team game you willingly and voluntarily put yourself into the position to play against other teams.

2) Yea, that's why I suggested lobbies like what private matches have available so even pick up teams can coordinate what they're taking before launching into the game. That would solve that issue entirely

Not sure how you don't understand the advantage of playing with your team vs. randoms, even if you have comms.

For instance, in CoD on XBox, everyone has comms... but coordinated teams have an advantage over pugs. And thus, they have a solo queue... although most solo players play in the regular queue anyway.

[nehebkau]

The whole solo aspect was explained to me this way: A solo MWO player views the other players as meat-shields.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

1) sorry, that's like saying, "We're entering into this sports tourney this weekend but we only want to play against teams that don't play together very often". You're playing a game with competitive goals. Some teams practice. others don't. I don't see this as a valid reason. When you play ANY kind of team game you willingly and voluntarily put yourself into the position to play against other teams.

Hmmm. Your argument kinda reinforces my 1). Those who play together more, work together better, they have an advantage over Lil billy and the 11 random players on his team. You said you thought VOiP was the "only" advantage teams have, which isn't quite true.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 August 2014 - 03:44 PM.