121 replies to this topic

[Kyle Wright]

The downside of VOIP would be the verbal abuse and the constant trolling.

[Triordinant]

WarHippy, on 24 August 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Voip
Familiarity
Force composition (as far as being able to coordinate who is taking what before the launch)

If they add in game voip I see no reason to keep them apart.

LOL, you just provided two (see above).

[Sandpit]

WarHippy, on 24 August 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

I think you pretty much have it covered.

Voip
Familiarity
Force composition (as far as being able to coordinate who is taking what before the launch)


If they add in game voip I see no reason to keep them apart.

I jsut want to make sure I've got all the bases covered before I start tossing out ideas on how to fix those advantages.

Kyle Wright, on 24 August 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

The downside of VOIP would be the verbal abuse and the constant trolling.

mute option, this shouldn't be a concern. As long as you can mute others it won't ever be an issue.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I jsut want to make sure I've got all the bases covered before I start tossing out ideas on how to fix those advantages.


mute option, this shouldn't be a concern. As long as you can mute others it won't ever be an issue.

I don't think you really need to fix it at this point. Solo players have their own queue. The problem is pretty much solved.

[Triordinant]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I don't think you really need to fix it at this point. Solo players have their own queue. The problem is pretty much solved.

That's what I thought.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I don't think you really need to fix it at this point. Solo players have their own queue. The problem is pretty much solved.

But are solo players going to be happy when their role as filler comes into play with CW?

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 24 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

I don't think you really need to fix it at this point. Solo players have their own queue. The problem is pretty much solved.

What about CW?
What about sync drop issues?

If CW is going to be anything more than an MS paint leaderboard, there will have to be a few fundamental changes to how queues work.

[RussianWolf]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

please stop posting ignorance?
http://en.wikipedia....o_rating_system

you're set against opponents in a range of Elos close to yours. If none are available after a certain amount of time, that acceptable Elo range is extended.

Please stop trolling the thread. Your opinion on whether or not Elo "works" is no relevant to the topic.

yet you have to admit that some of the "Uber Elites" complain a lot about getting "stuck with noobs in trial mechs", ewhich shouldn't be possible if ELO was inplemented correctly (even in a flawed implementation).

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

So group advantages
Voip
Familiarity
Force composition (as far as being able to coordinate who is taking what before the launch)

anything else?

To elaborate:

1. Voip: players who have trained together every week for months on Voip are far superior to random players on Voip. The only way to equalize it is to train as hard and as often, something random players on Voip are unable to do.

2. Familiarity: this is the big one. Knowing your teammates' moves and reactions like the back of your hand is a huge advantage. This also means that the better pilots can mentor and train up the lesser ones and the new recruits. Again, the only way to match this is to train as hard and as often (see no. 1).

3. Force composition: not only can well-established groups coordinate which 'mechs they bring so that they cover each other perfectly and work well together, they can even coordinate their weapon loadouts, consumables and modules. Once again, training together intensively helps them determine what works for each teammate, and who works best with whom, something randoms on Voip can't do.

[Sandpit]

RussianWolf, on 24 August 2014 - 06:06 PM, said:

yet you have to admit that some of the "Uber Elites" complain a lot about getting "stuck with noobs in trial mechs", ewhich shouldn't be possible if ELO was inplemented correctly (even in a flawed implementation).

They're complaining about new players when they have absolutely no idea what their or the other players' Elos are. They also base it on "He's in a champion mech so he's new". I don't know how well Elo works in MWO because we dont' our personal Elos but I know how the Elo system works in general. It's also very possible that some of those "elite" players aren't quite as "elite" as they thought

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 24 August 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

To elaborate:

1. Voip: players who have trained together every week for months on Voip are far superior to random players on Voip. The only way to equalize it is to train as hard and as often, something random players on Voip are unable to do.

2. Familiarity: this is the big one. Knowing your teammates' moves and reactions like the back of your hand is a huge advantage. This also means that the better pilots can mentor and train up the lesser ones and the new recruits. Again, the only way to match this is to train as hard and as often (see no. 1).

3. Force composition: not only can well-established groups coordinate which 'mechs they bring so that they cover each other perfectly and work well together, they can even coordinate their weapon loadouts, consumables and modules. Once again, training together intensively helps them determine what works for each teammate, and who works best with whom, something randoms on Voip can't do.

1.) Take training out of the equation. That's not a group vs. solo thing. Players who drop solo have just as much experience with the game. I understand what your'e getting at but training is not and should not be a consideration in MM. Groups also have their Elo artificially inflated so they're facing more skilled opponents already due to the nature of the group Elo handicap. Solo players have every opportunity to train, test builds, play, etc. that group players have. I just don't see this one being an issue.

2. That falls right under training to me. That's like saying, that amateur softball team plays together a lot and practices a lot. They shouldn't be allowed to play in my softball tournament because they're too "advanced" and have familiarity with one another. I'm not being sarcastic, that's just how I see this particular issue.

3. Lobbies just like what we have in private matches would eliminate this advantage completely.

The thing about 1 & 2 is that it's basing things on skill levels. It's implying that solo players aren't as skilled as group players. Solo players aren't some drooling mass of nose pickers who don't know how to play. They have the same spread of players as groups do. Some are bad, some are good, some are very casual, some are hyper competitive.

[-Natural Selection-]

Solo que is just bad. Add VOIP and then allow groups back into the same que against the solo. There
will be NO reason to have them separated if those who say "we are just as good, but need comms" are correct.

Edited by Mickey Knoxx, 24 August 2014 - 06:23 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

A good argument I must say Sand. And does bring it back to Communication. 12 seasoned vets working in silence will not be as good as 12 vets on Comms.

[Sandpit]

Mickey Knoxx, on 24 August 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

Solo que is just bad. Add VOIP and then allow groups back into the same que against the solo. There
will be NO reason to have them separated if those who say "we are just as good, but need comms" are correct.

Well there's going to have to be some sort of melding for CW. It jsut can't work like it does now so I'm getting ideas from everyone about what they feel are the advantages of groups. Get some feedback and ideas so maybe we can present some of it to PGI.

[-Natural Selection-]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Well there's going to have to be some sort of melding for CW. It jsut can't work like it does now so I'm getting ideas from everyone about what they feel are the advantages of groups. Get some feedback and ideas so maybe we can present some of it to PGI.

With all the QQ in the past from people about coordinated groups in a que with solo players, I am not sure there would be a solution that would work for some with that mindset. Look at how people tossed a fit when in a 2-4 man against anything bigger. Don't think there will be a mid any way it would work out.

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

1.) Take training out of the equation. That's not a group vs. solo thing. Players who drop solo have just as much experience with the game. I understand what your'e getting at but training is not and should not be a consideration in MM. Groups also have their Elo artificially inflated so they're facing more skilled opponents already due to the nature of the group Elo handicap. Solo players have every opportunity to train, test builds, play, etc. that group players have. I just don't see this one being an issue.

2. That falls right under training to me. That's like saying, that amateur softball team plays together a lot and practices a lot. They shouldn't be allowed to play in my softball tournament because they're too "advanced" and have familiarity with one another. I'm not being sarcastic, that's just how I see this particular issue.

3. Lobbies just like what we have in private matches would eliminate this advantage completely.

The thing about 1 & 2 is that it's basing things on skill levels. It's implying that solo players aren't as skilled as group players. Solo players aren't some drooling mass of nose pickers who don't know how to play. They have the same spread of players as groups do. Some are bad, some are good, some are very casual, some are hyper competitive.

1. Dead wrong. Training together as a team is the number one reason why well-organized established groups outperform solos. It's not just part of the group vs. solo issue, it's the main part. There's no way to leave it out of the equation. It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, it's how long you've trained and campaigned with the same unit that counts most of all.

2. You just made my argument for me. This is why pros don't ever go up against amateurs in all sports. Well-established teams are not equivalent to amateurs who train more. They're equivalent to pros because most MWO players don't train together at all.

3. Lobbies won't solve the main issue, which is groups that have trained and played together so long and so hard that they work together like clockwork. That's how they determine who brings the ECM, which ones bring UAV, which guys make the perfect spotter/LRM boat pair and who should be the team sniper.

[Roland]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

What about CW?
What about sync drop issues?

If CW is going to be anything more than an MS paint leaderboard, there will have to be a few fundamental changes to how queues work.

Well, for cw, i suspect there won't be a solo queue. Or maybe there will be. Ultimately, it's kind of a moot point, since we have absolutely no idea how any element of cw will work, and is probably at least a year out.

For sync dropping, with the exception of challenges and tournaments, the folks going out of their way to sync drop are bads who can't hack it in the group queue, and this aren't really much of an impact to any game they play... And once unit tags show up, they will just be laughed out of the game if folks see them sync dropping.

For tournaments, pgi needs to just stop having challenges that you can only complete solo.

[Tarl Cabot]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

So after another in a long list of "solo" vs. "groups" I had a thought.


The only difference between "solo" and "group" (I use "" because there's no such thing as "solo" in MWO, you're on a team in a team-based game regardless of whether it's 11 other random teammates or 11 teammates you formed up with prior to launching) is Voip. That's the only advantage group players have over solo players.

That's why the group queue and solo queue were separated. So what happens when Voip is implemented in game (which PGI has stated will get implemented)? If Voip is the sole advantage, what happens when that advantage is made available to all players? Do we no longer need separate queues? Does that makes separate queues "obsolete" at that point?

I'm curious as to the rest of the community's thoughts on this one.

VOIP in group play is ONE of the differences but NOT the only one. Remove VOIP and the difference between those who drop with people they may or may not know vs those who run as a unit, have practiced and have gone accustomed to each other moves and, even with the inadequate/piece of blank/blank/blank chat UI, be able to communicate enough to get the job done.

That is the main difference. Been in games where 2 or 3 stick together, target the same mech, hit the Lance chat for a quick update and roll along? It can be done but many do not play with a group-centric mindset, not really. Many play with a gung-ho attitude without taking an overall look at how things are developing. Of course with the general solo-queue the best anyone can direct is to off a suggestion, be it head for the base (on Terra Therma tis usually 2 lance one way, and the 3rd the other way, which has actually worked out so far).

Will things get better with CW? For the mercs/house-centric units in general definitely but for the general solo-queue not so much.

Joseph Mallan, on 24 August 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

A good argument I must say Sand. And does bring it back to Communication. 12 seasoned vets working in silence will not be as good as 12 vets on Comms.

Who would you consider to be seasoned vets? Those who have dropped and trained together (more than 12 people, as a unit overall) and with VOIP or no VOIP, or just someone who has played the game for awhile and who does not go gung-ho?

Yes group queue can inflate someone's elo, but isn't that the difference between soldiers and warriors?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 24 August 2014 - 07:04 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tarl Cabot, on 24 August 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

VOIP in group play is ONE of the differences but NOT the only one. Remove VOIP and the difference between those who drop with people they may or may not know vs those who run as a unit, have practiced and have gone accustomed to each other moves and, even with the inadequate/piece of blank/blank/blank chat UI, be able to communicate enough to get the job done.

That is the main difference. Been in games where 2 or 3 stick together, target the same mech, hit the Lance chat for a quick update and roll along? It can be done but many do not play with a group-centric mindset, not really. Many play with a gung-ho attitude without taking an overall look at how things are developing. Of course with the general solo-queue the best anyone can direct is to off a suggestion, be it head for the base (on Terra Therma tis usually 2 lance one way, and the 3rd the other way, which has actually worked out so far).

Will things get better with CW? For the mercs/house-centric units in general definitely but for the general solo-queue not so much.

Thing is, the game was being developed to be a recreation of the Clan Invasion. So groups of Inner Sphere players would play against groups of Clanners. How do PUGs feel they "fit" within this?

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 24 August 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

1. Dead wrong. Training together as a team is the number one reason why well-organized established groups outperform solos. It's not just part of the group vs. solo issue, it's the main part. There's no way to leave it out of the equation. It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, it's how long you've trained and campaigned with the same unit that counts most of all.

2. You just made my argument for me. This is why pros don't ever go up against amateurs in all sports. Well-established teams are not equivalent to amateurs who train more. They're equivalent to pros because most MWO players don't train together at all.

3. Lobbies won't solve the main issue, which is groups that have trained and played together so long and so hard that they work together like clockwork. That's how they determine who brings the ECM, which ones bring UAV, which guys make the perfect spotter/LRM boat pair and who should be the team sniper.

YOu don't have to be a "pro" to train, practice, and improve. This is why there's no distinction between amateur teams and pick up games.