121 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

in the pug, you are kinda solo. Because you can hardly act as a team, by lack of proper communication. When the Pug-team dynamic is right it sometimes happens to be very coordinated teamplay. But most of the time it gets a bit chaotic.

Ingame Voip would be great. But still let poeple have the solo queue. It's a better place for people to get known to the games basics than in team matches. Even wih Voip, a guy that just started the game, hardly knows how to control his mech, would not really be much worth for a group queued team. Nor will he probably lern much except how to die withing seconds of being spotted.
Also PUG is where people use funbuilds as well, while group droping has a different way to play the game more competitive. And I really don't want to ruin the competitive players playstyle and match just because I am in the mood to play a funbuild.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 August 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Kilo 40, on 24 August 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

yes but VOIP isn't going to be much help when half the team doesn't speak the same language

It will not help with text chat either - what is your point?

Commo-Rose would help with some of the language disconnect though as it would be simple in game orders, targetting etc which helps a very small amount .... but nothing can solve a problem with different languages unless you are pushing to somehow remove those from your queue which is kind of unfair.

[Kilo 40]

Asmudius Heng, on 25 August 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

It will not help with text chat either - what is your point?

the topic was about VOIP helping in pugs compared to the way it is now(text chat). My point was that while voip may help, things like language barriers, and other reason posters have given, it won't put pugs on the same level as premades.

I thought the point was pretty clear.

[Asmudius Heng]

Kilo 40, on 25 August 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

I thought the point was pretty clear.

I thought it was a little off topic.

In regards to putting pugs on an even footing ... that will never happen when units train together. That training simply trumps mostly what pugs can bring no matter how good intentioned.

VOIP however can totally LESSEN the gap thats the biggest thing .... i dont mind if they keep solo ang group seperate, at least the solo experience AND group experience will be better with VOIP and any small language issues i am certain are not going to be the norm.

[Triordinant]

The Wakelord, on 25 August 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

I'm not sure why people think VOIP is a magic equaliser of dedicated teams verses random individuals. More importantly, I'm not sure why Sandpit is reliably ignoring this or misunderstanding this.

Sandpit: Training as a team & training repeatedly with the same team is different to individual skill & ability.

Here is what I feel are some key considerations for what would be different if VOIP was implemented, and why the 2 queues should remain separate.

a) Serious groups are organised & have training for how to work with each other. As others have said at length they can (1) trust their team (2) effectively co-ordinate builds with their team.

b ) The individual skill levels are a small consideration here. It is how the team works as a whole. A team that has practiced with the other members of its team will be much more fluid & reliable.

c) Serious groups are like-minded to a certain extent, so they can focus on the game. They do not need to be pressing keys to mute certain (or all) players. Muting players now also means they have no VOIP, and thus at a disadvantage. MWO is a pretty hate filled game, so chances are I'd have the chat muted 2/3rds of the time.

d) Casual groups are not much different to PUG. They do not co-ordinate much and this is where I fall in myself. I play mechs I like with friends, and we do not train together or particularly learn each other's tactics. The only real different comparing a casual group to a PUG is that the level of communication is higher because (1) we speak the same language (2) we are friends (or friends-of-friends) so we generally listen to suggested ideas

e) PUG lobbies are not going to have the care factor often to make complementary builds. Up to 4 players may have both the care factor & the correct mech to complement some of the other players. The remaining players will be silent or surly (compared to a serious group where 50-100% of the team will playing complementary)

f) PUG players are often dickheads. As an example when asked 'what's the plan' the reply 40% is "kill the enemy!", 40% is silence, and 20% is someone offering the stock-standard tactics (take the mountain)

g) VOIP will not remove PUG players who want to go lone wolf. They will mute you & ignore your screams of anger.

This guy gets it.

[Kilo 40]

Asmudius Heng, on 25 August 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

I thought it was a little off topic.

did you even read the OP? that IS the topic.

[Deathlike]

The whole real point of solo vs groups is having people that are generally going to naturally work together vs those that don't.

That is ultimately the biggest "imbalance" in this game. Teamwork is OP after all.

It doesn't matter what form it comes in, but every little bit helps in increasing the probability of success.

[Sandpit]

So how do we improve those solo players' experiences for CW? CW is coming, voip is coming, solo players will have to play alongside these groups regardless.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 25 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

So how do we improve those solo players' experiences for CW? CW is coming, voip is coming, solo players will have to play alongside these groups regardless.

I'd like to think a solo player needs to reach a 1 k-d ratio before they can participate... but that would kinda be too arbitrary in some ways.

First and foremost, a weapons tutorial has to be created.. no matter how I keep repeating it 50 different ways.

[Johnny Z]

I tried Planetside, not a bad game at all, it has integrated voice, and it doesnt work so its no problem . I tried another game where it does work, and it was 100% troll fest. The player population dropped by like 95% in under 2 weeks from what I could tell. I just stopped playing as well instead of turning it off, because then a player would get trolled for turning it off. Anyway there is a big push for voice comms in all persistent online games lately, and I dont think to many will go with it.

The online games I have played it only worked in the one. Also I should say that game had the worste trolling i have seen in any online game yet, not just the voice comms part.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 August 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 25 August 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

I'd like to think a solo player needs to reach a 1 k-d ratio before they can participate... but that would kinda be too arbitrary in some ways.

First and foremost, a weapons tutorial has to be created.. no matter how I keep repeating it 50 different ways.

That's great for NPE but that doesn't address the issue of solo players playing alongside groups in CW. So how do we bridge that gap?

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

I tried Planetside, not a bad game at all, it has integrated voice, and it doesnt work so its no problem . I tried another game where it does work, and it was 100% troll fest. The player population dropped by like 95% in under 2 weeks from what I could tell. I just stopped playing as well instead of turning it off, because then a player would get trolled for turning it off. Anyway there is a big push for voice comms in all persistent online games lately, and I dont think to many will go with it.

The online games I have played it only worked in the one. Also I should say that game had the worste trolling i have seen in any online game yet, not just the voice comms part.

It's coming regardless, voip is sorely needed here.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 25 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

That's great for NPE but that doesn't address the issue of solo players playing alongside groups in CW. So how do we bridge that gap?

#1 option for me would be to create an opt-in system for solo players to play with groups.

Failing that though (because PGI) is to have like a "secondary cadet bonus" of sorts for playing 25 matches in the group queue (which means they have to get into a premade) to see what goes on.

Edit:
A more "global lobby" for people discussing stuff would be very helpful, of course requiring moderation tools.

Also, you could have a "matchmaking" (not MM) system that allows newbies to find groups that opt in to allow newbies to find, play, and get them the help they need.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 August 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Well this is really a discussion about open world games vrs instanced games isnt it. In an open world game this wouldnt really be a factor worth discussing at length. In an instanced game like this one and many others, this can have some relevance although a comm wheel would be much better in every respect as it stands now.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 August 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[Sandpit]

Johnny Z, on 25 August 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Well this is really a discussion about open world games vrs instanced games isnt it. In an open world game this wouldnt really be a factor worth discussing at length. In an instanced game like this one and many others, this can have some relevance although a comm wheel would be much better in every respect as it stands now.

no, it's a conversation about how to bridge the advantage gap between groups and solos

[WarHippy]

Sandpit, on 25 August 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

So how do we improve those solo players' experiences for CW? CW is coming, voip is coming, solo players will have to play alongside these groups regardless.

I'm not sure there is a way to do that without some sort of silly mechanic to buff solo players are nerf group players, and if they did that I'm not sure I would play much any more if at all. I think its something solo players are just going to need to adjust to, and as a former almost exclusive solo player I don't think there is enough of a difference to really matter. When I was solo I never wanted the groups out of the solo queue and when they were removed I wanted the option to drop in the group queue.

[Grrzoot]

Sandpit, on 25 August 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

That's great for NPE but that doesn't address the issue of solo players playing alongside groups in CW. So how do we bridge that gap?

I do not beleive that pgi is going to allow solo players to ever play against groups at this point. Given the sucess of the cue split. Perhaps they will allow you to "opt in" to playing in the group cue and you have to take into consideration the advantages you are giving up by doing so. But i see this as a non issue.

There is never going to be a magic button to take a group of people who don't know each other at all and put them against a group of people who play together all the time and have it balanced. Regardless of how many scenarios you come up with if you look at all the edge cases, they are too far apart to come to the middle.

The only way to balance solo players, is against other solo players. In my experience even when i randomly get a teamate or two from my unit in the solo drop, we generally perform much better as even just a two or 3 man group than normally would happen as just a solo player in the solo cue.

Voip or not. You can give everyone voip but that will not fundamentally change the structure of how solo drops work, and quite honestly, a 6 man group of the more competitive units can usually smoke a whole 12 man of pugs. That is why the cues are seperate and why they should remain that way.

Yes we are going to have cw, but it is going to be the same, group v group and solo v solo.

Anytime you make the game appear to have an element of pre-determination, i got the crappy 6 man and you got the good 6 man. It makes the game less enjoyable for the participants who are solo.

[Sandpit]

WarHippy, on 25 August 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

I'm not sure there is a way to do that without some sort of silly mechanic to buff solo players are nerf group players, and if they did that I'm not sure I would play much any more if at all. I think its something solo players are just going to need to adjust to, and as a former almost exclusive solo player I don't think there is enough of a difference to really matter. When I was solo I never wanted the groups out of the solo queue and when they were removed I wanted the option to drop in the group queue.

group players already have a handicap. Their Elo is inflated for being in a group

[Kjudoon]

Sandpit, on 24 August 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

So after another in a long list of "solo" vs. "groups" I had a thought.


The only difference between "solo" and "group" (I use "" because there's no such thing as "solo" in MWO, you're on a team in a team-based game regardless of whether it's 11 other random teammates or 11 teammates you formed up with prior to launching) is Voip. That's the only advantage group players have over solo players.

That's why the group queue and solo queue were separated. So what happens when Voip is implemented in game (which PGI has stated will get implemented)? If Voip is the sole advantage, what happens when that advantage is made available to all players? Do we no longer need separate queues? Does that makes separate queues "obsolete" at that point?

I'm curious as to the rest of the community's thoughts on this one.

There is one advantage the solo queue has over the group queue: It doesn't hide elo mismatches by averaging.

If you had a scale of 1-1000, and a 50 point difference is a significant issue in balance of skill, this is what happens.

12 guys drop in group. You have 3 members at 1000 points, 5 at 100 points and the remainder at 400 points, you will get a group average of 425.

Now let's say that 12man and compare it to a group of 3 4mans who have something similar.

One group has a member at 1000, the rest at 300, giving a group average of 475
The 2nd group has 3 members at 600 and one at 100 also giving an average of 475
The 3rd group has 2 members at 350 and 2 at 600 giving an average 475

Seems nice and balanced, right? BUt now let's compare the teams as a whole.

12man ----- 3x4
(425) ----- (475)
1000 ----- 1000
1000 ----- 600
1000 ----- 600
400 ----- 600
400 ----- 600
400 ----- 600
400 ----- 350
100 ----- 350
100 ----- 100
100 ----- 100
100 ----- 100
100 ----- 100

Notice, in the group queue, with averaging... (on paper this is a nominally balanced match. It's only 50 points different and the advantage is towards the 3x4 group). Unfortunately, only half of the group is evenly matched all the 100's and one 400-350 and one 1000. Is this going to be a fair fight? Not even close unless someone on the 3x4 group gets incredibly lucky. Why?

The 12man is all on a single coordinated teamspeak. The 3x4 is on THREE different teamspeaks doing their own thing even if it is trying to help one another. This is something I hear whinged about in the solo queue by players not willing to fess up and admit to themselves they don't play well with others, and that is why they lose. As an example, I sync dropped today about 5-6 times with teammates without realizing it because I wasn't in TS. I won some, I lost some... Just the same as if I would have moved into channel with them.

Also consider in this example, three 1000 elo players should be able to eat through the other 11 players like Augustus Gloop on all things edible. The poor players sitting down at 100 are outclassed on every level and shouldn't even be in this fight, just as much as every player at 1000 shouldn't be in this fight... But the elo is "balanced" according to the group queue MM logic.

This cannot happen in the solo queue. Most of these players, if the elo spread was capped at 250, although the same rule would not have stopped this mismatch in the group queue, would never see each other and generally never should. This is what encourages players and teams to sync drop. Because even if you don't manage to get any of your teammates into your side, you are at least more evenly balanced.

Now why bring back the small queue? Because these levels of imbalance get smaller. It's why the SoloQQ crowd freaked out about Lances till PGI took that mode away without considering the consequences... or just figured it's "Working as Intended^tm" There were elo mixmatches, but nowhere near as severe. This is why you need to return a small group queue where solo players not totally terrified of the ebil premade can play with groups of 2-4 in a more casual setting with smaller mismatches. You don't have the ability to get hardcore teams dropping there en masse, and if they do, they're far more balanced.

There's your major difference and problem with Stomptown... I mean the group queue and a solution on how to fix it...

Edited by Kjudoon, 25 August 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Roland]

Quote

This cannot happen in the solo queue. Most of these players, if the elo spread was capped at 250, although the same rule would not have stopped this mismatch in the group queue, would never see each other and generally never should. This is what encourages players and teams to sync drop. Because even if you don't manage to get any of your teammates into your side, you are at least more evenly balanced.

No, the Solo queue will still make vast differences in Elo, just trying to get an overall elo average between the entire teams to be reasonably close.

There is literally no reason to sync drop besides the fact that it gives you an advantage.

You're saying that it gives you "better matche", but the reason you think that is that it's giving you EASIER matches. It's easier, because you are sync dropping, and that's not being accounted for by the matchmaker.... and that results in you winning more, which you like.

[Galenit]

Sandpit, on 25 August 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

group players already have a handicap. Their Elo is inflated for being in a group

If they play in their group, their elo reflects their performance with that and in that group.
Its only inflated if they play under other conditions as they have earned their elo.