46 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 August 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

The only way I would be happy with seeing Clan UA/Cs getting round speed boosts and tighter shot groupings is if ghost heat is added when more than say as an example: 3 UA/C5 or 2 UA/C10s or 20s are fired at once.

Ghost heat sucks, but you can't have the best of both worlds.

They do have the ghost heat limits you mentioned here. However, the multiplier and the base heat lead to it being of no consequence except for the UAC20.

4xUAC10 = 1.44 extra heat
6xUAC5 = 1.08 extra heat
6xUAC2 = .81 extra heat

[Ultimax]

MeiSooHaityu, on 26 August 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

The only way I would be happy with seeing Clan UA/Cs getting round speed boosts and tighter shot groupings is if ghost heat is added when more than say as an example: 3 UA/C5 or 2 UA/C10s or 20s are fired at once.

Ghost heat sucks, but you can't have the best of both worlds.

Rouken, on 26 August 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

They do have the ghost heat limits you mentioned here. However, the multiplier and the base heat lead to it being of no consequence except for the UAC20.

4xUAC10 = 1.44 extra heat
6xUAC5 = 1.08 extra heat
6xUAC2 = .81 extra heat

1) cUAC 10 ghost heat kicks in at 3, not 4.
2) I'm not positive, but it feels like cUAC Ghost Heat is actually per shell, not per trigger pull. Can anyone confirm?
3) 2x cUAC 20 have a level of Ghost Heat that make AC 40 shots from a Jager look cool by comparison (this is due to RoF + Double Tapping).

[headbasher]

Yea man firing 2 CUAC 20's i was like WOW talk about some heat man.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 25 August 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Regular ACs are no different. A single AC2, AC5, or AC10 is terrible on an IS mech. Only the AC20 is any good by itself.

Sounds like the problem is theres not enough clan mechs that have multiple ballistics slots, rather than the fact UACs are too weak. Because boated UACs are already quite good on the Dire Wolf and buffing them would make the Dire Wolf even stronger, which is a bad idea.

But granted, weapons are balanced terribly in this game. For example why does an IS Streak2 weigh more than a medium laser yet do less DPS? When the Streak2 has shorter range, uses ammo, can get jammed by ecm and shutdown, and has a ton of other disadvantages over the medium lasers. It makes no sense.

For the same reasons as streaks, UACs should do more damage than clan energy weapons. However I tend to think most clan energy weapons are currently way too good. Because buffing UACs makes the direwolf stronger, which I already said was bad. But nerfing clan energy makes all clan mechs weaker, so nerfing clan energy seems like a better option, given that clan mechs are considered overpowered in general.

IS ACs should also be burst fire. Because the AC20 basically makes it pointless to pilot any mech less than 35 tons. For mechs like the locust/commando to be viable that amount of pinpoint damage cant exist in the game.

No more nerfinator online please.

Clan energy is inferior to IS energy in almost all ways but one, and frankly, outside of 1 particular weapon, are almost twice the burn duration.

I am not trying to be rude here, but if clan energy weapons are killing you so bad you think they are OP...try torso twisting. Seriously...that 2 second duration CERLL is not bad if you spread the damage. Consider, over the same time frame, it does a few tenths more than the IS ML. CLPL has longer duration than IS ERLL and IS ERLL weighs less, runs cooler, and does more damage per tick. Not very pulse like at all is it? But CLPL is OP right?

No....no it is not.

UACs do need a buff to the burst duration. Not saying it should be right on top of each other...but maybe a 20-30% reduction would be enough. Perhaps a slight boost to the UAC10 and UAC20 projectile speed for clans.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Ultimatum X, on 26 August 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

1) cUAC 10 ghost heat kicks in at 3, not 4.
2) I'm not positive, but it feels like cUAC Ghost Heat is actually per shell, not per trigger pull. Can anyone confirm?
3) 2x cUAC 20 have a level of Ghost Heat that make AC 40 shots from a Jager look cool by comparison (this is due to RoF + Double Tapping).

MeiSooHaityu said they should get ghost heat at 3 and I said they already do. I listed the ghost heat for 4xUAC10s because that is probably the highest number of them you will see boated, same with the UAC5 and UAC2 which both get ghost heat on the 4th weapon.

Ghost heat is per burst, not per projectile. Otherwise two UAC20s would generate over 150 heat which is the same as 12xER ML. That would cause any mech to shut down for a few moments.

[Ultimax]

headbasher, on 26 August 2014 - 06:47 AM, said:

Yea man firing 2 CUAC 20's i was like WOW talk about some heat man.

Yeah, I thought:

Warhawk, 71 kph. 2x cUACs 20 built in DHS!

I'M GOING TO WRECK STUFF!


First match, Terra Therma - no snipey snipey play, all out brawl....

"..This was a bad idea..."

Rouken, on 26 August 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

MeiSooHaityu said they should get ghost heat at 3 and I said they already do. I listed the ghost heat for 4xUAC10s because that is probably the highest number of them you will see boated, same with the UAC5 and UAC2 which both get ghost heat on the 4th weapon.

Ghost heat is per burst, not per projectile. Otherwise two UAC20s would generate over 150 heat which is the same as 12xER ML. That would cause any mech to shut down for a few moments.

Good point, thanks for clarification.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gyrok, on 26 August 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

No more nerfinator online please.

Clan energy is inferior to IS energy in almost all ways but one, and frankly, outside of 1 particular weapon, are almost twice the burn duration.

I am not trying to be rude here, but if clan energy weapons are killing you so bad you think they are OP...try torso twisting. Seriously...that 2 second duration CERLL is not bad if you spread the damage. Consider, over the same time frame, it does a few tenths more than the IS ML. CLPL has longer duration than IS ERLL and IS ERLL weighs less, runs cooler, and does more damage per tick. Not very pulse like at all is it? But CLPL is OP right?

No....no it is not.

UACs do need a buff to the burst duration. Not saying it should be right on top of each other...but maybe a 20-30% reduction would be enough. Perhaps a slight boost to the UAC10 and UAC20 projectile speed for clans.

Food for thought...

That one advantage that the Clan energy weapons have (range and a small bit of damage) is far more important than a lot of people give it credit for. IS will have the advantage with the shorter beam duration, but only if an IS mech can close the distance between him and the enemy to within his optimal firing range, and do it without taking a ton of damage.

For an example, we will use the workhorse of the mech world, the IS MLaser and the Clan ERMLaser

• The Clan ERMLaser applies 2 additional damage per burst (7 damage vs 5 damage from IS MLaser).
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's max range is 360m further (900m vs 540m from IS)
  
• The Clan ERMLaser's optimal damage range is 180m further (400m vs 270m)

Now I don't have a drop off table, but lets assume for an IS MLaser, 5 damage goes down to 2~3 damage at about 400m. The Clan ERMLaser is still doing 7 damage at that range (still at his optimal firing range).

If I am running an IS mech with 4MLasers, and fire at 400m out (relatively medium range and well within most mech engagment ranges), I am applying at the most (12 damage per burst). A Clan mech running the same loadout (4 ERMLasers) is doing an astonishing 28 damage at the same range.

Now the clan has a 30% longer beam duration, but...

• At 400m, you shouldn't have a problem keeping a reticule on most moving mechs (Heavies and Assaults, and even Mediums and all but the fastest lights)
  
• if an IS mech does 12 damage at 400m in 1 sec., a Clan ERMLaser is still doing approx. 18 damage within the first 1 sec. That is still almost 1 additional MLaser extra vs the IS mech for the same tonnage
  
• The longer the ranges (up to 540m, the larger the descrepancy)

Then once you get past 540, the clan mech is still pegging you with damage that you can't return.

Now some say...Learn to play and torso twist to spread damage. All mech pilots try and do that regardless of what mech is shooting you (IS or Clan). Even with torso twisting (at 400m)...

• If an IS mech fires 4 MLasers and hits 3 chassis locations (assuming the entire beam duration hits), you might do 4 damage per mech location.
  
• If a Clan mech fires 4 ERMLasers and hits 3 chassis locations (assuming the entire beam duration hits), you will do just over 9 damage per location
  
• If we limit the clan duration to the same as the IS...say after 1 sec your shot misses all together as a Clanner due to the longer beam duration, you still do 6 damage per location (twice as much).

This is just the MLaser, the Large lasers ranges are more extensive and maybe things start to equalize out with the IS ERLLaser.

Really, the only way to even things out in the example above is to close within 270m and try and circle straffe. Make it hard for a clanner to keep the full beam duration on you and hope for the best. Even then though, he is still doing 2 more damage per laser (8 more total for 4MLasers).

This tactic sounds great, but even people on the forums know that brawling (which is what 270m falls within) is hard to do. The Clanners do enjoy a really good energy weapon. I think that is why a 2 C-ERLLaser, 5 C-ERMLaser Storm Crow is a very potent enemy.

That is why I think anyone who thinks the duration on Clan energy makes them inferior to IS isn't looking at the whole picture. Maybe inferior at the shortest of ranges, but most engagements are farther out in MWO, and the Clan's optimal range advantage is just massive (even with the longer durations).

Im taking this from Smurfy, so I am thinking these values are right.
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

P.S. I think Buffing the Clan Ballistic is a descent idea (because they could perform better on an individual bassis, but a small buff times the affects of boating would amplify the danger of these weapons immensly. If they get speed and clustering buff, they might need stricter ghost heat. just IMO.