46 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

I'm not here to debate FLD vs. Burst with Clan ACs.

It's pretty clear that FLD ACs are superior and that Clan AC/UACs are going to be burst no matter how much anyone does not agree with it.


What I do think, is that they need improvement.


What they need is actually very simple:


1) The need faster projectile speeds than they have now. There is no reason that a cUAC 10 firing little 2.5 damage (or whatever they are, I think it's a 4 shell burst) rounds in succession should have a fairly bad 950m/s speed.

*(I'm not saying make all of them 2000m/s instant hit rounds, just speed all of them up a bit - UAC 2s are fine).


2) Once that is fixed, the bursts might need to be slightly tighter. I.e. the time to complete one full burst should be shortened.



Why?

Well, for the weight, the crit slots, the ammo requirement, the time on target - they really are not very good as weapons outside of Dire Wolves who can boat the hell out of them. - and it's getting awful boring using basically Gauss and Lasers or maybe missiles on nearly every build at this point (and I love ballistics, but not these ballistics)

Sure there are some exceptions here and there, but generally speaking I think these improvements would be good.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 August 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Livewyr]

I think: Shorter bursts.

[MeiSooHaityu]

The problem with MWO is that PGI can't just balance for one UA/C, but has to also balance for multiple boated UA/Cs as well.

A C-UA/C10 probably isn't as dangerous, but make these changes to the C-UA/C5 and the Dire Whale boating the UA/C5 becomes even more dangerous with a tighter burst and faster travel time.

It sucks if an UA/C weapon needs to be buffed individually but can't due to boating.

They could Buff the UA/Cs and add ghost heat restrictions for boating, but we know how popular ghost heat is.

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 25 August 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I think: Shorter bursts.

Shorter bursts would be good, but that only addresses time on target and not damage spread or projectile drop as much.

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 August 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

The problem with MWO is that PGI can't just balance for one UA/C, but has to also balance for multiple boated UA/Cs as well.

A C-UA/C10 probably isn't as dangerous, but make these changes to the C-UA/C5 and the Dire Whale boating the UA/C5 becomes even more dangerous with a tighter burst and faster travel time.

It sucks if an UA/C weapon needs to be buffed individually but can't due to boating.

They could Buff the UA/Cs and add ghost heat restrictions for boating, but we know how popular ghost heat is.

To be honest with you, I've played the 4x and 5x UAC 5 DW and while it does a lot of damage, and seem scary and can be dangerous - I feel pretty much any combination of Dual Gauss + 20 tons of other stuff is almost always better.


I say that having scored multiple 1000k damage games with the Boated UAC 5 build.

It suppresses, it scares some opponents, but it is also one of the least efficient ways of getting the job done and exposes you to heaps of return fire.




I'm not asking for hitscan, which is the mechanism cUACs are in competition with and is for all intents and purposes superior.

I'm just looking to close that gap a bit to justify the tonnage and slots.


Perhaps (projectile speeds in m/s):

• cUAC 2: 2000 > No change
  
• cUAC 5: 1150 > 1400
  
• cUAC 10: 950 > 1200
  
• cUAC 20: 650 > 950

[Malcolm Vordermark]

The UAC5 and UAC2 are in pretty good shape I think (at least in terms of damage grouping). But the UAC10 and UAC20 don't seem worth it compared to the lasers, heavier and harder to group damage. In most cases you would be better off taking lasers and DHS over those two.

Edited by Rouken, 25 August 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[MischiefSC]

I am of the opinion that ppfld needs to die in a fire.

As such all acs should be burst fire - however I agree completely with op on needing a bit of a speed buff. I would say that IS burst acs need fewer projectiles per burst and even higher speed.

They do need to be faster/tighter though. I love my uac boat tw but a laser build is just flat out better.

[Lightfoot]

Clan UACs are the best there is. If you don't think so you aren't doing it right, think about them dynamically. The Clan AC's are just placeholders, don't use them. Go Clan LBX or Clan UAC's.

[AlphaToaster]

Targeting computers speed up projectile speed, so yeah, there's a way to help that if you need the shots to be faster. You get added crit, target info speeds, as well as some zoom and sensor range increase as well. A MK I for 1 ton/1 slot is a no-brainer.

I hope we see clan-autocannon-modles which change the spread on the burst for a trade off of increasing the CD so the DPS overall stays the same.

Example (I know my numbers are incorrect but for example), Say a uac5 fires 3 pellets in .5 seconds, with a 1 second CD. It would fire every 1.5 seconds since the CD starts after the burst has been fired. A proposed module could in theory, say fire the 3 pellets in .3 seconds, and make the CD 1.2 seconds. Overall the DPS would be the same, but the burst would rock out faster in a tighter pattern.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 25 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

They do need to be faster/tighter though. I love my uac boat tw but a laser build is just flat out better.

I think a lot of players all had the same epihpany on boated laser-wolfs right around the same time, post PPC/cERLLAS nerfs.

I was running a 2x UAC 5 + 4 cERMLAS TW and then realized that for the same 20 tons as the UACs, I could get 2x cLPLs and EIGHT extra dual heatsinks.


Along with a much higher alpha, zero projectile drop and hitscan delivery.

I swapped the cUAC 5s for cLPLs and that was that.

AlphaToaster, on 25 August 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Targeting computers speed up projectile speed, so yeah, there's a way to help that if you need the shots to be faster.

2x cUAC 5s + 6 tons ammo weighs TWENTY TONS.

Or, you can take 2x cLPL and EIGHT heatsinks and have instant hitscan delivery.

The laser version removes limbs and components with ease, deals with lights better.

This is not a hard decision for me.

AlphaToaster, on 25 August 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

You get added crit, target info speeds, as well as some zoom and sensor range increase as well. A MK I for 1 ton/1 slot is a no-brainer.

Lasers get all of those benefits as well, while being lighter, requiring less slots and having superior delivery.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 August 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 25 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

I am of the opinion that ppfld needs to die in a fire.

As such all acs should be burst fire - however I agree completely with op on needing a bit of a speed buff. I would say that IS burst acs need fewer projectiles per burst and even higher speed.

They do need to be faster/tighter though. I love my uac boat tw but a laser build is just flat out better.

There is no PP FLD, except that PGI gave AC10's and ERPPCs the same travel time, but we've debated that. PPFLD is broken up when you move laterally due to different weapon's travel times and Ghost Heat is supposed to limit the number of matched type weapons to whatever they think is reasonable. Moving laterally to break up pin-point alpha-strikes is the main skill to piloting mechs. Without it players would just park on a ridge, but wait, that's what most players do and they get cored for it.

So that leaves FLD and that is a good thing to have to counter the burst weapons which do higher damage for experienced players, or players experienced with them. MWO would be horrible with all the weapons shooting a different colored Burst of Cheeze. You have to have both FLD and Burst. Learn to do both and you see they make MWO tactically richer.

[MischiefSC]

Fld is always better. You get pp hits across multiple fld weapons consistently with a little practice. Watch heimdlights stream for a while and then tell me it can't be done easily.

[Sahoj]

I'm on the fence about these - If I'm in my Stormcrow with 5 erml and a UAC/20 I will full frontal down an Atlas but I can't hit fast mechs for my life without swapping to the LBX.

Different playstyle with the UAC20 and it is refreshing at times - you don't ridge hump. You commit entirely and totally to an attack and ruin someone.

Edited by Sahoj, 25 August 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[Khobai]

CUACs are fine.

The problem is innersphere weapons still doing frontloaded pinpoint damage. All autocannons should burst fire.

Mechs like the locust/commando are simply not playable mechs when weapons like the AC/20 do 20 damage in one hit.

[Ultimax]

Sahoj, on 25 August 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'm on the fence about these - If I'm in my Stormcrow with 5 erml and a UAC/20 I will full frontal down an Atlas but I can't hit fast mechs for my life without swapping to the LBX.

Different playstyle with the UAC20 and it is refreshing at times - you don't ridge hump. You commit entirely and totally to an attack and ruin someone.

I used to think the same, and then I realized how many SRMs + Ammo I could get for the same tonnage and realized neither the Clan LBs nor UACs are really "worth it".

cUAC 20 + 3 Tons Ammo = 15 Tons
Delivery: Projectile, spread, "burn" time

4x cASRM6 + 5 Tons Ammo = 15 Tons
Delivery: Projectile, spread, Front loaded


It might be closer than I'm giving it credit for, but when it takes around 1s to deal the 40 damage from a UAC 20 double tap - it only takes an instant to deal 48 damage from the SRMs.


The SRMs also never jam, and leave you standing there for 9s waiting to fire again.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 25 August 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

CUACs are fine.

They seem fine to you because you are boating clan Ballistics in a Dire Wolf.

Try using a single UAC on other clan mechs, since that's what only most of them can load.


Then trade the same weight for energy weapons + heatsinks and try it out.


They are not "fine" compared to the other options that are also spread/time on target weapons.


I deliberately did not compare them to IS ballistics, I compared them to Clan weapons and they are not as good per ton as most other offerings unless you can literally boat the hell out of them.

[Khobai]

Quote

They seem fine to you because you are boating clan Ballistics in a Dire Wolf.

Try using a single UAC on other clan mechs, since that's what only most of them can load.

Regular ACs are no different. A single AC2, AC5, or AC10 is terrible on an IS mech. Only the AC20 is any good by itself.

Sounds like the problem is theres not enough clan mechs that have multiple ballistics slots, rather than the fact UACs are too weak. Because boated UACs are already quite good on the Dire Wolf and buffing them would make the Dire Wolf even stronger, which is a bad idea.

But granted, weapons are balanced terribly in this game. For example why does an IS Streak2 weigh more than a medium laser yet do less DPS? When the Streak2 has shorter range, uses ammo, can get jammed by ecm and shutdown, and has a ton of other disadvantages over the medium lasers. It makes no sense.

For the same reasons as streaks, UACs should do more damage than clan energy weapons. However I tend to think most clan energy weapons are currently way too good. Because buffing UACs makes the direwolf stronger, which I already said was bad. But nerfing clan energy makes all clan mechs weaker, so nerfing clan energy seems like a better option, given that clan mechs are considered overpowered in general.

IS ACs should also be burst fire. Because the AC20 basically makes it pointless to pilot any mech less than 35 tons. For mechs like the locust/commando to be viable that amount of pinpoint damage cant exist in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 25 August 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MischiefSC, on 25 August 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

I am of the opinion that ppfld needs to die in a fire.

As such all acs should be burst fire - however I agree completely with op on needing a bit of a speed buff. I would say that IS burst acs need fewer projectiles per burst and even higher speed.

They do need to be faster/tighter though. I love my uac boat tw but a laser build is just flat out better.

This is as far as I will agree Chief. I do love me some FLD.

[Pilotasso]

my kitfox has a C-UAC/10 and that thing deals as much damage as my atlases builds per match. Improvement you say?

[Khobai]

Quote

This is as far as I will agree Chief. I do love me some FLD.

Of course you do, because FLD is outright better than non-FLD, to the point of being unbalanced. Particularly against light mechs. Which is why so few are piloted (less than 15% right now).

[Voivode]

If you give the UACs for clans a buff like that just introduce a mechanic that increases the jam chance the more UACs you have. Dire Wolf wall of lead problem solved.