66 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

Well I get killed by LRMs - if that means I'm unskilled we can try schedule some 1v1s if you insist - if that would've proove something.
As for the rest:
No one can force you to pick up mech that has ECM(not to mention you could not have any).
You should never, ever ,ever pick ECM mech just cause otherwise you're gonna get nuked to oblivion by LRMs - that by itself speaks enough about this whole convo.
No one can force to bring AMS and you shouldn't do so just to soak 5 LRMs per volley, while there's a quite decent chance that there either won't be any LRM boats, or if they are that they would rain over some targets around you.
Sometimes you DO understand that enemy ECM raven/spider/kitfox/all are seeing you, NARCing you, TAGing you, and there aint a thing you can do about it - not in time though - 3 LRM boats need about 5/6 seconds targeting time to completely kill an assault mech - since any not-brain-dead LRM boat is bringing adv. target decay module, which gets us to our next argument:
Radar derp.
Yet the next "SO MUST TO HAVE!! I NEEDS IT!!" module, that people try to proclaim it's a MUST.
Yea. It kinda is. And the very sole reason for that are LRMs again.

So looky looky - ECM, Target Derp. AMS, good cover, not get spotted and NARCed - all these stuff are needed because of a single friggin weapon that, if used well, has 0 risk chance(while you're firing at your target).
I'm not saying that I have issues with LRMs - yea, I get killed by them but so what?
I'm getting killed by all sorts of ACs, Lasers, SRMs and etc.

I am against people saying that you need sooo much should-be-optional sheet just to have defense against basic-aim-and-possitioning-low-skill-indirect-fire-weapon-that-you-can-fire-a-kilometer-away-at-your-target-without-seing-it-at-all?
People are getting killed by it.
And accept it finally - it's not ALWAYS their own mistakes.
I don't have a single ECM mech - what if all the players I drop together with are the same huh?
Will you say that I MUST buy ECM mech to not get killed by LRMs?
Don't you find that sooo sooooooo stupid?

Stop. Calling. People. Killed. By. LRMs. Low. Skill. Idiots.
OKAY?

I. Never. Did. I. Pointed. Out. Rookie. Mistakes. We. All. Make. From. Time. To. Time.

[Sirius Drake]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

I am against people saying that you need sooo much should-be-optional sheet just to have defense against basic-aim-and-possitioning-low-skill-indirect-fire-weapon-that-you-can-fire-a-kilometer-away-at-your-target-without-seing-it-at-all?
People are getting killed by it.
And accept it finally - it's not ALWAYS their own mistakes.
I don't have a single ECM mech - what if all the players I drop together with are the same huh?
Will you say that I MUST buy ECM mech to not get killed by LRMs?
Don't you find that sooo sooooooo stupid?

Stop. Calling. People. Killed. By. LRMs. Low. Skill. Idiots.
OKAY?

Uhhhh no.
Avoiding LRM is easy.
If you are able to avoid them and get killed by them anyway it might be skill on the other Team.
Like a light holding a lock or a Tag lighting you up.
LRMs do kill, you know. But then a well aimed Gauss in your mechs Head kills as well.

[Voidcrafter]

Sirius Drake, on 28 August 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Uhhhh no.
Avoiding LRM is easy.
If you are able to avoid them and get killed by them anyway it might be skill on the other Team.
Like a light holding a lock or a Tag lighting you up.
LRMs do kill, you know. But then a well aimed Gauss in your mechs Head kills as well.

Well I kinda agree with this to some degree.
But after I read this I thought about something really weird...
I find evading gauss/PPC/Laser shots way easier than LRMs - taking cover from LRM fire is harder than any other weapon in game.
And yea - I always have radar derp on the mechs I play the most with - it's the module I own in the most quantity(which is... troubling).
From my personal experience with LRMs my foes kinda experience the same anomaly - since all I need is simple calculations concerning my position and voala - holding that evil 3(my chain fire 2xLRM20, 1xLRM15) button.
Tbh I kinda start to think that there're very few people that get killed from LRMs while standing in the open - and thus that topics annoyingly poppin' all around the forum.
Hell - I for one almost never get killed by LRMs in the open - I don't ever go in the open
But still - I get killed by them, and by "killed" I mean get cored/stripped from armor - at least to a degree that the next target I encounter have really, really good chances of taking me down.
I get "killed" by LRMs as often I get "killed" from anything else.
Yea - I die a lot - I have no issues with that fact - I've chose the life of a brawler and it's something that comes hand to hand with that playstyle.
I die almost every single game. I die in all sorts of ways caused by all sorts of reasons.
My mistakes, being outplayed by someone better, or someone who just managed to be in the right place at the right time, or all of those.
I don't deny other people skill, especially when they prove it to be greater than my own, especially when it that happens to be on my own terms - though in this game all that is kinda hard to be judged.

My point - all and all 'tis a fishy weapon dude.
I can't recall the last time I was killed by LRMs while walking like an idiot in the open.
But I'm still getting killed by it - as (probably) most of those people that "whine" and "complain" about it.
Probably most of them haven't come to that sort of degree of "accepting" their own deaths/defeats, but hey - it does require a lot of self ego-face-fisting and you can't blame em for that

So yea - avoiding getting hit by LRMs in the open while near cover is easy.
Avoiding getting hit by LRMs while being a target of competent team play is really optional stuff.
Could be the easiest thing on the planet - especially when you have that 30 floor building, or when you're in a tunnel/basement.
But it also can be impossible.
Don't deny that

Edited by Voidcrafter, 28 August 2014 - 03:05 AM.

[Sirius Drake]

Ok, Gauss was a bad example. But you got my point ^^
And i will not deny that avoiding LRM can be almost impossible under specific circumstances.
Still i don't think they are broken.
I even think if you find yourself in a Position where you can't evade them somebody did his Job good and the LRMs are doing exactly what they are there for ^^

Edited by Sirius Drake, 28 August 2014 - 02:54 AM.

[Evil Ed]

How can anyone have problems with LRMs when the Radar Deprevation Module is available? Buy it, learn to move slightly to the side when back behind cover and watch the missiles fly by you... (I often bring AMS to keep my teammates alive a little longer)

Edited by Evil Ed, 28 August 2014 - 02:58 AM.

[Tenacious B]

gamingogre, on 27 August 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

i pop up to shoot and in that 2-3 second window I am locked for LRMs.... there is no check for LRMS. you get locked, you run for cover, the cover failes to cover you, and you die. Hence, game broken.

Broken? Radar derpy derp will fix your broken game pretty quick. I rarely leave home without it.

[Voidcrafter]

Tenacious B, on 28 August 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Broken? Radar derpy derp will fix your broken game pretty quick. I rarely leave home without it.

Yea but the sad thing is that this module have little side utility if you cut the anti-LRMs stuff, while still costs the same price.
The only wide available LRM soaking utility is AMS.
And I always find this very puzzling - everyone noting "LRMS FINE!! GO HOME AND LEARN TO USE COVER NAB! TROLOLOL" ordinary have spend milions about the module named, have AMS and/or are piloting ECM mech OR are counting anyone else in the team have done the same.
If LRMs aint that big deal why bother doing all that?

A disclaimer though:
I don't claim they're OP, need nerfing, stuff.
I am saying that, in my own personal world and opinion, they should act a bit different - as a more direct-fire-approach weapon - buuut I have almost no issues with the weapon as is.
Still I can understand while people continue to discuss it over and over and over and over again.

[ApolloKaras]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

Yea but the sad thing is that this module have little side utility if you cut the anti-LRMs stuff, while still costs the same price.
The only wide available LRM soaking utility is AMS.
And I always find this very puzzling - everyone noting "LRMS FINE!! GO HOME AND LEARN TO USE COVER NAB! TROLOLOL" ordinary have spend milions about the module named, have AMS and/or are piloting ECM mech OR are counting anyone else in the team have done the same.
If LRMs aint that big deal why bother doing all that?

A disclaimer though:
I don't claim they're OP, need nerfing, stuff.
I am saying that, in my own personal world and opinion, they should act a bit different - as a more direct-fire-approach weapon - buuut I have almost no issues with the weapon as is.
Still I can understand while people continue to discuss it over and over and over and over again.

I can understand complaining about them in the solo queue. Where you can't prepare and you have no idea what your teammates are bringing or doing. However.... Complaining about them in the group queue??


@OP Sorry this is kinda on your group... If you are depending on others for your support then you're in for a bad time. I haven't experienced heavy issues in the group queue regarding lrms. Normally we'll bring a mech with a Jesus box, and look up to make sure there aren't uav's flying around. If you already know that lrms are a "problem" Then what are you taking to counter them. What tactics are you employing, what mechs are you deploying? These are questions that you would have to ask yourself before stating that they are ruining the group queue.

[John1352]

I've written a bit of an essay on LRM balance here: http://mwomercs.com/...they-really-op/ Go read it, then instead of the "LRMs are OP" threads, we can be constructive.

[Sirius Drake]

We should also not ignore that LRMs have an devestating psychological impact.
Yesterday i was playing in Solo. I had an good overview and somebody sticked his head round the corner and triggered 7 LRMs streams. I was like "holy ****!".
They didn't even hit him but the view is impressive enough to make some players run around like headless chickens.
Wouldn't be surprised if a few of the "LRMareOP!!!" faction actually NEVER got killed by a LRM salvo.

[Voidcrafter]

Saxie, on 28 August 2014 - 03:26 AM, said:

I can understand complaining about them in the solo queue. Where you can't prepare and you have no idea what your teammates are bringing or doing. However.... Complaining about them in the group queue??

You're skipping my point again.
Either way - people don't bring ECM combined with Radar Derp. AND AMS just because all those laser/SRM/PPC/Gauss/AC and all in all - everything aside of LRMs.
Either queue. Any time.
You're bringing those stuff in the team BECAUSE of LRMs, even though you're not 100% sure there will be any.
You're 100% bringing at least two of those optianal equipment, that are quite costly(in different terms - wether someone don't enjoy piloting that very same ECM mech, spending milions on a friggin module, or wasting tonage for ECM + ammo instead of anything else) just cause a single weapon in the game.
I challenge you - answer me this: which other game weapon forces the players to take THAT much counter measures?
You're claiming they aint scary, they're easy to avoid, something you shouldn't be afraid of etc. etc. and still you're pointing as your main argument you are using a module that costs milions CBills.
I, again point toward that, don't have problems with LRMs.
But it's not hard to see why others do.
Ignorance is to not try to.

I don't buy it - "Oh LRMs? Meh... who cares about em - they're so harmless... that's why my team in the group Q always brings at least 2 ECM, multiple AMS,and stands behind good cover all the time! Oh yea - and radar derp is a must!"

[ApolloKaras]

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

You're skipping my point again.
Either way - people don't bring ECM combined with Radar Derp. AND AMS just because all those laser/SRM/PPC/Gauss/AC and all in all - everything aside of LRMs.
Either queue. Any time.
You're bringing those stuff in the team BECAUSE of LRMs, even though you're not 100% sure there will be any.
You're 100% bringing at least two of those optianal equipment, that are quite costly(in different terms - wether someone don't enjoy piloting that very same ECM mech, spending milions on a friggin module, or wasting tonage for ECM + ammo instead of anything else) just cause a single weapon in the game.
I challenge you - answer me this: which other game weapon forces the players to take THAT much counter measures?
You're claiming they aint scary, they're easy to avoid, something you shouldn't be afraid of etc. etc. and still you're pointing as your main argument you are using a module that costs milions CBills.
I, again point toward that, don't have problems with LRMs.
But it's not hard to see why others do.
Ignorance is to not try to.

I don't buy it - "Oh LRMs? Meh... who cares about em - they're so harmless... that's why my team in the group Q always brings at least 2 ECM, multiple AMS,and stands behind good cover all the time! Oh yea - and radar derp is a must!"

I fail to see the problem of bringing 3 tons of equipment (2 ecm) to almost nullify 20 tons worth of lrm launchers. At that point the missile boat has to open himself up to direct fire to get a lock....

[Roland]

We absolutely rolled some 12 man running like 8 LRM boats last night, with a team consisting of smaller groups.

Turns out, if you have the guts to keep pressing, LRM teams tend to fall apart.

The big problem many folks have is that they think they need to "stay in cover", which they translate to mean, "cower in a hole". However, this is generally what LRM heavy teams want... to have you sit way back from them and let them leisurely fire missiles at you while some lighter mechs get locks for them.

Just push on them and kick their faces in.

[Elizander]

LRMs move in a fixed path after losing lock. If they are heading at you and you do not step to the side (just pressing back) then you will get hit.

[Agelmar]

I don't understand the LRM whines.

Play smarter. They are brutal if you are caught in the open or can't find cover. I've been Narc'd and destroyed in seconds, but I also put myself in a position to get Narc'd and destroyed in seconds.

Learn, adapt, move on. I'm actually pissed when I see dedicated LRM boats on my team. It generally means I'm going to have to work that much harder to carry the win.

[Fut]

gamingogre, on 27 August 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

I am so sick of trying to play in group and finding only LRM groups. They are invincible. I mostly play Ballistics; and from my point of view, things are way out of balance. Just last round, I am in a cataphract. Full armor, i pop up to shoot and in that 2-3 second window I am locked for LRMs. I back up down the mountain and am out of sight from all enemies and no uav. I keep backing up and getting hit by missiles; there is no narc or spotter. I die from these missiles that held lock for 12+ seconds. How do you hold a lock for so long? Unless this is a hack (which i doubt) Clan missiles and lock times have broken this game. I didn't have a single round hit 100+ damage all night in the group queue. Every time it's the same story. LRM lock on, I run to cover. Cover fails and I die. The weapons are meant to be like rock, paper, scissors. Yet in most of my mechs (the non-ECM ones) there is no check for LRMS. you get locked, you run for cover, the cover failes to cover you, and you die. Hence, game broken.

You can't keep backing up in the exact same line. Once they lose LOS on you, the missiles will continue along their straight path towards your last location. If you would simply move laterally once you break LOS, the missiles will hit the ground beside you.

Seriously, a little bit of thought goes a long way...

Elizander, on 28 August 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

LRMs move in a fixed path after losing lock. If they are heading at you and you do not step to the side (just pressing back) then you will get hit.

Exactly

Edited by Fut, 28 August 2014 - 06:13 AM.

[Voidcrafter]

Saxie, on 28 August 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

I fail to see the problem of bringing 3 tons of equipment (2 ecm) to almost nullify 20 tons worth of lrm launchers. At that point the missile boat has to open himself up to direct fire to get a lock....

The issue is that 3 tons of equipment almost nullify 20 tons of a weapon.
And when that doesn't happens - I know, I know - it's hard to imagine a world where people don't bring ECM and Radar Derp(again - ask yourself why) - that very weapon eats people alive. Literally. In every imaginable way.
If you don't call *that* a gamplay/balance/weapon/whatever issue I don't know what can I say more.
You ARE bringing this equipment just because LRMs exsist. Because you fear it.
Yea - it's the most logical thing to do - it saves you tons of issues.
That's the sole purpose of ECM, radar derp. and AMS(Edit: Currently it is. Even if it has some pros aside of LRMs that's the only reason people are bringing those to the field - if you partially cut the light ECM mechs).
With that in mind I won't be so sure that all is working as intended.

Edited by Voidcrafter, 28 August 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Agelmar]

I'll also mention I don't run ECM mechs or use AMS on my builds. I do have radar derp and everyone else should too. It does far more than just help protect against LRMs. Losing lock quickly helps keep your damage information from the enemy team so they don't know where you are vulnerable.

This is a tactical game. LRMs require tactics to use effectively. Don't complain about having to use tactics to counter them.

Caustic is by far the most difficult map to deal with LRMs, but there are many locations around the caldera to lose lock and use the rocks to shield.

[Lynx7725]

Roland, on 28 August 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Turns out, if you have the guts to keep pressing, LRM teams tend to fall apart.
Just push on them and kick their faces in.

I don't always agree with Roland, but this is true. Controlled, directed aggression wins. The game does not reward camping. A team that lost forward momentum is one that is on the path to defeat.

Voidcrafter, on 28 August 2014 - 06:16 AM, said:

And when that doesn't happens - I know, I know - it's hard to imagine a world where people don't bring ECM and Radar Derp(again - ask yourself why) - that very weapon eats people alive. Literally. In every imaginable way.

No. You're letting the fear of LRM affect your thinking. I have played short range brawl builds before there was a Rader Dep module and without the benefit of ECM. For a considerable amount of time. I can win. I don't always win, but I can. I just need to be more careful about things and avoid contact until I find ground I am willing to fight over.

If you let the fear of LRM dominate your approach to your prey, then you're not really a predator. Find a way. That's the only way to get better at this game.

[Fut]

Lynx7725, on 28 August 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

If you let the fear of LRM dominate your approach to your prey, then you're not really a predator. Find a way. That's the only way to get better at this game.

Wonderful wording, Lynx. Hope it sinks in for people.