Jump to content

Russ: Clarifying The Convergence Question From Town Hall


16 replies to this topic

#1 SweetJackal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 968 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 05:41 PM

There was some confusion over the terms used in the question on Convergence and just what it all meant in terms of how the game was played so I'm going to make things crystal clear. All examples given are using weapon systems that share optimum ranges.

Instant Convergence (Instant-Dynamic Convergence)

This is currently what we have in the game. Wherever your cross-hairs land that is the point all weapon fire lines cross.

Legend:
Blue Lines = Instant Convergence Weapons
Purple Lines = Fixed Convergence Weapons
Red Cross-hair = Your Targeting Reticule
Green Circle = Optimum Range
Textured Square = Intervening Terrain

Posted Image

As you can see it doesn't matter where the weapons are mounted, where your target is in relation to your optimum range or anything else, you move the targeting cursor over what you want to hit and click a button. Point and click, the computer does the rest.

Fixed Convergence (Static Convergence)

This is a very simple concept. Weapons don't move from their anchors, fire comes out straight from the barrel. For the examples provided weapons are fixed to converge at their optimum range.

Legend:
Blue Lines = Instant Convergence Weapons
Purple Lines = Fixed Convergence Weapons
Red Cross-hair = Your Targeting Reticule
Green Circle = Optimum Range
Textured Square = Intervening Terrain

Posted Image

For this it is clear that where the weapons are mounted and their optimum range matter far more than where your targeting reticule is pointed. For real world examples you don't need to look past static weapons, gunpods and such that is often mounted to aircraft and why most critical weapons are mounted close to or on center to the aircraft. Setting convergence was important on WWII era fighters as well.

Now I will fully admit that a blanket adoption of Static Convergence doesn't make sense. This is because Mechs have things call arms that in most cases are capable of lateral movement, able to move side to side and aim independent of the torso.

This is why my personal favorite happens to be the following:

Mixed Convergence (Mixing Static and Instant-Dynamic Convergence)

Enjoy more awesome artwork!

Legend:
Blue Lines = Instant Convergence Weapons
Purple Lines = Fixed Convergence Weapons
Red Cross-hair = Your Targeting Reticule
Green Circle = Optimum Range
Textured Square = Intervening Terrain

Posted Image

As you can see this is a mix of the Instant Convergence we are all used to and the Static Convergence talked about earlier on. So why do I like this?

It makes the choices and skills of the player matter more. It achieves the aim of increasing damage spread, reducing the amount of damage a single volley does to one component in a manner that can be mitigated by player skill (the same way that Torso Twisting is using player skill to spread damage and reduce damage to the individual components.) It makes the mech you choose and where the weapons are placed on that mech matter more. It adds additional trade-offs to arms that give up lateral movement to mount heavier weapons. It makes positioning and adjusting for the offset so much more important in the game itself.

It makes long ranged weapons situationally more difficult to use depending on the build. If mounted in a location that has Static Convergence it won't automatically adjust for the shorter distance. It means that the two ERLLs you have mounted in your STs will not pinpoint the same location as the 4MLs you have mounted in your STs when up close. It means that there is more value to having those ERLLs in your arms instead.

It makes CT and Head mounted weapons even more valuable as these weapons are already centered and therefore easier to use

At this point I can gush on and on about it. Gauss Cats and Jagers would need to stagger their shots and offset for the difference between their mountings and optimum range or place themselves at an optimum range band to ensure both slugs hit the same location, Dire Whales would spread damage around more, Joke PPC Builds wouldn't be smashing one location with every shot. It gives more importance to the range and role of your weapons as well as where you mount them.

More so, it is done so in a consistent manner. Because the offset would be consistent you would be able to learn it and adjust for it, increasing depth and raising the skill ceiling. This is the biggest shot against Cone Of Fire as random isn't consistent, can't be adjusted for and limits the skill ceiling.

Discussion is always welcome.

#2 Gerhardt Jorgensson

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 174 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 05:56 PM

There use to be convergence that took time to achieve in closed beta. They took it out because programming wise it proved to destroy host state rewind. I would rather be able to hit what I am aiming at with my alpha strike then have my shots ghost through targets even more.

As clunky and unintuitive as ghost heat is, it does do the job of limiting the amount of times super huge alpha strikes can be fired, which in combination with differing projectile speeds, helps mitigate the problem of one hit KO's.

#3 SaltBeef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 2,081 posts
  • LocationOmni-mech cockpit.

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:24 PM

Just Make IS auto cannons burst fire like clan Ultras that will cut PPFL damage by at least 60%. Guass and PPC should not be able to be fired at least 5 seconds from one another and make it so they cannot be grouped together problem solved 100%
Make it so No more than 2 gauss or 2 PPcs can be fired at the same time from a group.

Edited by SaltBeef, 03 October 2014 - 07:25 PM.


#4 Kiiyor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 5,565 posts
  • LocationSCIENCE.

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:43 PM

View PostSaltBeef, on 03 October 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Just Make IS auto cannons burst fire like clan Ultras that will cut PPFL damage by at least 60%.


Lol, and the clan win rate will go from 75% or so, to 1,307,778,321%.

#5 SaltBeef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 2,081 posts
  • LocationOmni-mech cockpit.

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:44 PM

IS mechs are getting buffs so I do not think it would be a issue.

#6 Mechwarrior Buddah

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 13,459 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:46 PM

View PostGerhardt Jorgensson, on 03 October 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

There use to be convergence that took time to achieve in closed beta. They took it out because programming wise it proved to destroy host state rewind. I would rather be able to hit what I am aiming at with my alpha strike then have my shots ghost through targets even more.

As clunky and unintuitive as ghost heat is, it does do the job of limiting the amount of times super huge alpha strikes can be fired, which in combination with differing projectile speeds, helps mitigate the problem of one hit KO's.


It also tended to cause dual Gauss shots to either cross in front of the target and miss or cross after and miss for no reason

View PostSaltBeef, on 03 October 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Just Make IS auto cannons burst fire like clan Ultras that will cut PPFL damage by at least 60%. Guass and PPC should not be able to be fired at least 5 seconds from one another and make it so they cannot be grouped together problem solved 100%
Make it so No more than 2 gauss or 2 PPcs can be fired at the same time from a group.


Why not maqke it like TT where you fire once every ten sec too -.-

#7 Rebas Kradd

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,969 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:49 PM

You have to keep some kind of convergence in order to allow mechs to target components of other mechs. Removing convergence would be removing that ability. There would no longer be any point to knowing the weak spots of a mech (information warfare) because hey, my weapons are going all over the place anyway, so I should probably just be focusing center torso.

I know alpha pinpoint is a problem, I get that instant convergence makes no sense, but the alternatives are worse. Other solutions, like removing arm lock for players out of the cadet phase, might help.

#8 SaltBeef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Determined
  • The Determined
  • 2,081 posts
  • LocationOmni-mech cockpit.

Posted 03 October 2014 - 07:50 PM

Target info gathering would be worthless.

#9 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:27 PM

View PostGerhardt Jorgensson, on 03 October 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

There use to be convergence that took time to achieve in closed beta. They took it out because programming wise it proved to destroy host state rewind. I would rather be able to hit what I am aiming at with my alpha strike then have my shots ghost through targets even more.

As clunky and unintuitive as ghost heat is, it does do the job of limiting the amount of times super huge alpha strikes can be fired, which in combination with differing projectile speeds, helps mitigate the problem of one hit KO's.



Yeah, but really....how many Lolpha strikes can one mech really take? You dont need but like 2 or 3 and trust me....the heat system and crap doesnt limit Lolphaing enough to matter. Cuz really...1 Lolpha, off goes a torso....another, off goes the other torso....

There really is no way to truly limit or balance lolphaing....unless they removed group fire all together.

#10 Mechwarrior Buddah

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 13,459 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:30 PM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 03 October 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:



Yeah, but really....how many Lolpha strikes can one mech really take? You dont need but like 2 or 3 and trust me....the heat system and crap doesnt limit Lolphaing enough to matter. Cuz really...1 Lolpha, off goes a torso....another, off goes the other torso....

There really is no way to truly limit or balance lolphaing....unless they removed group fire all together.


And when they do that you have teamwork where you all fire together at one target. What then? mechs all cant fire the same weapon at the same time either?

#11 SweetJackal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 968 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:35 PM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 03 October 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

You have to keep some kind of convergence in order to allow mechs to target components of other mechs. Removing convergence would be removing that ability. There would no longer be any point to knowing the weak spots of a mech (information warfare) because hey, my weapons are going all over the place anyway, so I should probably just be focusing center torso.

I know alpha pinpoint is a problem, I get that instant convergence makes no sense, but the alternatives are worse. Other solutions, like removing arm lock for players out of the cadet phase, might help.

Well that's just it, this does. My own choice on the matter is Mixed Convergence, which isn't about removing convergence from every weapon but rather removing convergence from Side Torso mounted weapons and AC20 capable arms. Arms would still have convergence and CT weapons would still be centered.

This isn't random hit locations. This is exactly what you do with any long rifle for hunting. You have your scope zeroed to a certain range in a firing range then you adjust where you plant your sight depending on distance and conditions. Replicating it in MWO would be having the Atlas Champion Gauss Rifle needing to aim a little up and to the left to peg the CT at short ranges.

The difference in that adjustment wouldn't be much either as Side Torso mounted weapons aren't that far apart. It would make short ranged weapons mounted in the side torsos harder to be pinpoint accurate with at longer ranges and longer ranged weapons more unwieldy at shorter ranges. The difference we are talking about isn't one shot hitting the mech and the other missing nor are we talking about an extreme spread like the LBX series. Failure to compensate would merely mean that you may have one or some weapons strike the adjacent component.

For the others: The reason why I didn't bother explaining the Delayed-Dynamic Convergence we had in the CB was because it was an utter mess. It regulated the PPC to being completely worthless and placed extreme strain on most ballistics due to the TT values for ammo in addition to turning Hit Reg to complete garbage. I remember the closed beta very well being that I was in it before the founders got injected.

#12 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:36 PM

View PostKiiyor, on 03 October 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

Lol, and the clan win rate will go from 75% or so, to 1,307,778,321%.


I'm so disappointed. I thought Mathematics was one of your strong points. ;)

#13 Kiiyor

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 5,565 posts
  • LocationSCIENCE.

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:40 PM

View PostMystere, on 03 October 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:


I'm so disappointed. I thought Mathematics was one of your strong points. ;)


GAH! I forgot to carry the 2!

#14 Psydotek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 745 posts
  • LocationClan 'Mechs? Everywhere? GOOD!

Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:52 PM

My ideal vision is that full convergence would not be achieved until you hold your crosshair/reticle over the target for afew seconds. This would prevent snapshots that deal pinpoint alpha strikes, reward patience, and provide a bit of a buff for fast/weak scout 'mechs. Also, poptarting would be severely hampered.

Therefore firing before full convergence is achieved would result in taking a chance that the shot might miss completely or at the very least strike a different hit location.

#15 STEF_

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nocturnal
  • The Nocturnal
  • 5,443 posts
  • Locationmy cockpit

Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:03 PM

Mixed convergence NOW!

It also have a realistic flavour: arm monted weapons can move much more than torso mounted one.
We can have a game experience closer to TT than now.
And maybe we can throw out ghost heat as well.
And better pilots can make their weapon converge using thier own piloting skill.

So:
MIXED CONVERGENCE NOW!

#16 Kirkland Langue

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 1,581 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:21 PM

I'd vote for Instant convergence on arms/head, and fixed convergence on Torso.
At least this sounds good.

To be honest, I'd rather they get CW implemented, complete their quirk pass, and Delete ECM/LRM (err, fix them... ) before worrying about convergence. I think changing convergence is a good idea but unless they went with a strict fixed convergence scheme, I doubt it would have enough of an impact to really justify being implemented before other things.

#17 Xarian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • 997 posts

Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:29 PM

It's a good idea... make lower arm actuators useful





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users