116 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Chances are there is more than one enemy mech on the field and in los of you, so if you just facetank like you're suggesting you're going to get hit CT. A lot. This is why shooting, then immediately shielding, is the preferred style of play.

which IS a notable improvement from Shooting, then cutting your JJs as the preferred style of play.

[Mandolorian]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 September 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Not entirely true.

It still carries less armor than heavier mechs, and usually less firepower. And it would still be less maneuverable than most Lighter mechs. It still has hardpoint placement less than Ideal for any role other than brawling, so it's not a natural peektart or hillhumper. And it was never flooding the servers because of it's brawling, in the first place. It became notorious due almost 100%, to Poptarting. And while they nerfed poptarting in ALL the wrong ways to get there, the truth is, poptarting is not near the plague it was just a couple months ago. There is zero reason for it's ground mobility to remain nerfed into the ground, when all returning it does, is allow it to shine at the role it was SUPPOSED to fill anyways. Agile Brawler.

As of now, I simply have no fears of Victors. And this despite having once been a holy terror in brawling VTR-9S's. When the Compies were deriding the VTR as second string to the CTF-3D, and the DragonSlayer as the worst of the chassis, I was brawling and loving it.... and on the first day the DS was released, RobinSage and I were switching between ac/5s and UACs, and PPCs and Large lasers in the RT, using the LA and LT as a shield. Though seldom did I poptart, but rather used it like the 'Roid-Raging Giant Centurion on a Pogo-Stick that it was, as a premiere brawler. (Go ahead and check the archives, you will see me as one of the sole early advocates of the VTR, and most of those who proclaim it's greatness now, dismissing it)

So why don't I fear it now? Due to the broken, EZmode meta of Poptarting, and the unimaginative masses flocking to the path of least resistance, and Paul's usually "soft touch" at balance, it simply is not a great brawler anymore. Even in my Orion, i don't fear them, (though I occasionally fear the pilot using one). But my BLRs. Stalkers and Atlases all seriously out armor and outgun the Victor. And Anything lighter easily outmaneuver one. About the only Assaults I find less intimidating are the Awesome and the poor benighted HGN, which got nerf hammered even worse on the mobility front (though it can still pack some guns in a support role, and much better than the VTR at it).

Yes, when part of a coordinated top tier team, potarting 3 of them with another 3 Twolves in support, and being backed up by 3 Stormcrows and Embers or ECM packing Lights, they can be effective. Most halfway decent mechs can be.

But it is NOT a top tier brawling mech currently. And that is a shame, as that is exactly what it is supposed to be.

Thank you for that

[Adiuvo]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Does that make the DS P2W? Although I'm not serious in wanting to discuss that at length, if you're saying it's the best mech for what it does, and requires actual upfront money... well...

P2LiterallyWin? No. P2GetLargeAdvantage? Not really. P2BecomeMarginallyMoreEffectve? Yes.

It used to fall under P2GetLargeAdvantage prenerf but the Cataphract and DS are more on par with each other now.

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I swear... you are deflecting on points just to be agreeable. Noone had advocated (unless they are a complete newbie) that the Atlas should be XL favorable because of the Atlas-K. While yes, I agree that hardpoints, weapon locations, missile tubes all dictate what loadouts SHOULD be used, it is worth looking at the viewpoint depending on the context. Ignoring other viewpoints is like saying "I'm right and you're wrong". That's not how a discussion flows.

I'm trying to be nice here. I could not be nice I suppose. It would certainly make me feel better.

Let's examine what you said.

"Why is it that every Victor has to be 320XL+ to even be competitive? It's bad enough the Highlander is capped @ 325."

My answer to that was basically that most mechs have an optimal loadout and optimal way to play them. The point of my examples was to show situations where this is already readily evident, with an emphasis on examples that nobody has ever had a problem with. The reason I brought up lights originally was because that was a direct comparison with a mech class that requires a large engine despite them coming with smaller engines. Basically the same exact thing you were complaining about with a Victor. The reason I brought up an Atlas later was because it was an assault mech.

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When you're designing balance, the first thing you have to accomplish first and foremost is that it should be easy to play (I don't mean you have to dumb down the game... it simply has to be quirk to grasp), and hard to master. With the Victor nerfs as currently constituted, there's only hard to master and ZERO middle ground. That's not a good thing for loadout diversity... if anything it limits it to a very specific subset and essentially "you'd have to be very good" to execute. That's crazy considering what we have for a learning curve in this game... which isn't natural to many.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Let's look at DoTA. Is Meepo easy to play, hard to master? Is Invoker easy to play, hard to master? Let's look at CS. Is a deagle easy to play, hard to master? Is the AWP easy to play, hard to master?

It would certainly be nice if everything fell under that designation, but obviously it's not always possible and to make it so would limit possible mechanics. There's nothing necessarily wrong with balance

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I've already suggested some posts ago that you've snipped. Either you skipped over it in TL;DR, or you're not even considering what I have to say.

Let's look at what you proposed.

"1) It still needs a torso twist/turn nerf, but closer to the "natural Highlander". -10% turn and 10% turn rates will stay. At worst, 15% is where it could be capped, but let's just work with the overall idea first before we keep tweaking further."

This is just a random throwout of numbers that you didn't really put much thought into. You basically just cut the values by half for the sake of doing so in pursuit of your probable ideal of the Victor having zero agility nerfs. You and I both don't know how a change like this would play out based only a flat percentage reduction. This kind of tweak would have to be played with, but in the end I'm guessing that it won't make much of a difference if it's only by 5%. In the end people will still probably be against it purely by the amount of red on the smurfy quirks page, without actually putting thought into what the numbers mean.

"2) Projectile speed nerf. Rather than just always nerfing PPCs/ACs/Gauss whenever it's in vogue, reducing the speed of the projectile by 15-20% (start @ 12.5%) is a significant enough nerf as it were. Of course, PPCs/ERPPCs primarily need to be buffed, but probably not back to the 1500 speed level.... perhaps 1150 (PPC) and 1300 (ERPPC) speed can stay where it's at. This DOES NOT harm brawlers in the same way, because AC10s and AC20s are slow enough as it is, so another nerf to speed isn't productive. This is based on how Targeting Computers work (boosting projectile speeds), so tweaking that does not sound complicated to add. This won't affect missiles at all."

This is based on the idea that the AC5/Gauss/PPC meta is still in full swing and that the Victor (Dragon Slayer) benefits greatly from it. The 'meta' DS, doesn't even use PPCs anymore. In any case, if no agility nerfs were implemented and this was kept instead, the Victor would still have all of its old problems. The Victor's original problem was its agility, much like how the Timberwolf's current problem is its agility. The TW is basically a repeat of the same exact issues the Victor had, except its even more egregious this time.

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Every single time I read this, it's almost like it's an affront to you. As much as the is a competitive portion of this game, it doesn't mean that you should claim that opposing views are completely irrelevant. That's why we have discussions. Not everything is clear black and white. However, this game design is unfortunately bordering on that sometimes. We're not talking about massive complexities of LRMs (because, it is a bit more complex than just the weapon system itself)... we're talking about how one chassis is almost solely nerfed for only competitive play in mind. There IS a middle ground. It doesn't have to be "bad player friendly", but there are a lot of competent players not part of the Lords or other competitive groups that do not have "elite vision". It is POSSIBLE to bridge such gaps if you're willing to discuss it.

If I wanted to dismiss people's opinions I would have just literally said L2P, linked some Victor drops, and been done with it.

The Victor wasn't nerfed with comp play in mind. No comp unit was asked for their opinions before it went live. It was done, I imagine, because the metrics showed that the Victor was overperforming.

What's the middle ground your proposing? How will you adjust the Victor so it performs well for a new person picking it up but not overpowered?

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Sometimes the status quo is broken. That's why discussions take place. What you're saying is "L2P", but the reality of the discussion is that sometimes that "L2P" isn't the appropriate response for something a bit more complex than just the term. I see the "don't nerf Clan" stuff ALL THE TIME, and I shudder to think why people don't know the true value of Clan XL engines. Whatever, I can't debate the obviously bad problems because they need no explanation. It's the details of existing stuff that is always up for debate.

First off let's look at what I said:

"so long as in situations where something is balanced, the overall status quo is not adjusted.

ie., if something is balanced be careful that any changes you make to it do not make it unbalanced.

I'm not simply saying L2P. To summarize my entire viewpoint on this issue.

1) People say that the Victor is a bad brawler.
2) I say that the Victor is not a bad brawler and point to successes that it has.
3) People say that is only because it's in a group environment.
4) I say that the same thing happens in solo play, and point out that the Victor's speed is what makes it good in solo play as well.
5) People still say it's bad.
6) I wonder why people say this despite it being considered the best brawler in high levels of play, and realize that people would rather blame the mech than themselves.

If someone has success with something and you do not, despite being under the same environment, chances are you're doing something differently. Ideally people would look inward and make adjustments, but that's not what happens.

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There's no right or wrong answer, but to say you or a group of people have all the right answers is disingenuous. I don't claim ANY of my balance ideas are perfect nor should they be. However, to tell people indignantly than their opinion is wrong "just because I'm better than you" is very demeaning and isn't why discussion exists. I accept and fully expect that my ideas can be totally wrong, but as long as we can have the conversation instead of "I'm right and you're wrong", then people will not look at competitive players with disdain. You are great at what you do, but people who are great can also be wrong. It happens. Noone is going to have the perfect solution... throwing alternative ideas is not a bad thing.

In the entire time I've posted on these forums I've never said or even implied that people are wrong and I'm right simply because I'm better than them. At worst I say 'I suppose it's just a difference in our queues' because I'm sure what they're saying is entirely true at their Elo. In other words they aren't wrong, but what they're saying doesn't apply to a level of play where people make less mistakes.

Like I said before I'm not against ideas. That would be stupid. I'm against things that are flat out wrong... like Victors being bad at brawling. Or lights being entirely useless. Or an average damage of 200 being acceptable (not Locust). Or a negative KDR not meaning anything. Or that W/L is entirely out of your control. Or that it's not possible to have an impact on a match. Or that Elo hell exists.

Edited by Adiuvo, 01 September 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

P2LiterallyWin? No. P2GetLargeAdvantage? Not really. P2BecomeMarginallyMoreEffectve? Yes.

It used to fall under P2GetLargeAdvantage prenerf but the Cataphract and DS are more on par with each other now.

I completely disagree with that, for a different reason altogether. The Cataphract and DS not on par with each other in the same way. The Cataphract is a better hill humper due to higher mounts, but that comes with the caveat that it has large side torsos, unlike the DS/Victor. They're not quite comparable in the same way, even though the "logical loadouts" are similar in nature.

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I'm trying to be nice here. I could not be nice I suppose. It would certainly make me feel better.

Then don't, because I'm trying to have a convo, but you don't want one. That's fine. Winning arguments is everything. Great, you win.

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Let's examine what you said.

"Why is it that every Victor has to be 320XL+ to even be competitive? It's bad enough the Highlander is capped @ 325."

My answer to that was basically that most mechs have an optimal loadout and optimal way to play them. The point of my examples was to show situations where this is already readily evident, with an emphasis on examples that nobody has ever had a problem with. The reason I brought up lights originally was because that was a direct comparison with a mech class that requires a large engine despite them coming with smaller engines. Basically the same exact thing you were complaining about with a Victor. The reason I brought up an Atlas later was because it was an assault mech.

I should have been more accurate in saying "making the Victor require a large engine to be usable in general". This isn't a STD vs XL engine debate (and was never meant to be one), rather you have to commit something relatively significant to "work past the negatives". For the average player (of course, that doesn't apply to you), it doesn't appear obvious as to why Victor needs that significant a penalty to be "put in line" with everything else. Noone has disagreed that the Victor doesn't deserve the nerf. The question has always been... is that nerf too much? That was the question been posed multiple times with respect to this thread. I disagree with current status. You "agree" with it as far as I can tell. That's fine. That doesn't mean we must squelch debate on the matter.

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I don't even know how to respond to this. Let's look at DoTA. Is Meepo easy to play, hard to master? Is Invoker easy to play, hard to master? Let's look at CS. Is a deagle easy to play, hard to master? Is the AWP easy to play, hard to master?

It would certainly be nice if everything fell under that designation, but obviously it's not always possible and to make it so would limit possible mechanics. There's nothing necessarily wrong with balance

For the sake of relevance, please talk with respect to MWO and not other games. I haven't played it, so commenting on a game I have not played, or will be able to "get" how balanced it is or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

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Let's look at what you proposed.

"1) It still needs a torso twist/turn nerf, but closer to the "natural Highlander". -10% turn and 10% turn rates will stay. At worst, 15% is where it could be capped, but let's just work with the overall idea first before we keep tweaking further."

This is just a random throwout of numbers that you didn't really put much thought into. You basically just cut the values by half for the sake of doing so in pursuit of your probable ideal of the Victor having zero agility nerfs. You and I both don't know how a change like this would play out based only a flat percentage reduction. This kind of tweak would have to be played with, but in the end I'm guessing that it won't make much of a difference if it's only by 5%. In the end people will still probably be against it purely by the amount of red on the smurfy quirks page, without actually putting thought into what the numbers mean.

I put thought into the base idea, but since balance does require a feelout period, I cannot with full conviction just say "do these numbers" and just make it happen. Balance does not work just like that.

The text in bold is MOST DISINGENUOUS. I have been saying multiple times that the Victor deserves some sort of nerf. It doesn't matter what specifically. I had ZERO objection in keeping some form of the actual torso twist AND turn nerf. All I suggested was it started with the Highlander-level of torso twist and turn rate (as a base nerf), and go from there. What part of that was not made clear? Putting words in my mouth is the best debate tactic?

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"2) Projectile speed nerf. Rather than just always nerfing PPCs/ACs/Gauss whenever it's in vogue, reducing the speed of the projectile by 15-20% (start @ 12.5%) is a significant enough nerf as it were. Of course, PPCs/ERPPCs primarily need to be buffed, but probably not back to the 1500 speed level.... perhaps 1150 (PPC) and 1300 (ERPPC) speed can stay where it's at. This DOES NOT harm brawlers in the same way, because AC10s and AC20s are slow enough as it is, so another nerf to speed isn't productive. This is based on how Targeting Computers work (boosting projectile speeds), so tweaking that does not sound complicated to add. This won't affect missiles at all."

This is based on the idea that the AC5/Gauss/PPC meta is still in full swing and that the Victor (Dragon Slayer) benefits greatly from it. The 'meta' DS, doesn't even use PPCs anymore. In any case, if no agility nerfs were implemented and this was kept instead, the Victor would still have all of its old problems. The Victor's original problem was its agility, much like how the Timberwolf's current problem is its agility. The TW is basically a repeat of the same exact issues the Victor had, except its even more egregious this time.

So if the meta-DS has actually changed loadouts, why didn't you share like a previous post? I would agree that the Timberwolf does share the same issues that the Victor does and obviously worse because of the omnipod system. I would rather penalize through the omnipod quirks on the Madcat though a more global nerf is more likely warranted.

Not all nerfs have to be the same though, that's been my contention. It will still have to have the "same overall effect", but obviously these things must be done on a case by case basis.

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If I wanted to dismiss people's opinions I would have just literally said L2P, linked some Victor drops, and been done with it.

The Victor wasn't nerfed with comp play in mind. No comp unit was asked for their opinions before it went live. It was done, I imagine, because the metrics showed that the Victor was overperforming.

What's the middle ground your proposing? How will you adjust the Victor so it performs well for a new person picking it up but not overpowered?

I've already suggested it through my ideas already. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I DID actually suggest something, regardless of whether or not it is a good idea.

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First off let's look at what I said:

"so long as in situations where something is balanced, the overall status quo is not adjusted.

ie., if something is balanced be careful that any changes you make to it do not make it unbalanced.

I'm not simply saying L2P. To summarize my entire viewpoint on this issue.

1) People say that the Victor is a bad brawler.
2) I say that the Victor is not a bad brawler and point to successes that it has.
3) People say that is only because it's in a group environment.
4) I say that the same thing happens in solo play, and point out that the Victor's speed is what makes it good in solo play as well.
5) People still say it's bad.
6) I wonder why people say this despite it being considered the best brawler in high levels of play, and realize that people would rather blame the mech than themselves.

It's not a bad mech, but the merits to why it is "bad" has some merit in basis.

Also remember, most people are not the Lords or the competitive community.

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If someone has success with something and you do not, despite being under the same environment, chances are you're doing something differently. Ideally people would look inward and make adjustments, but that's not what happens.

I would counter that in saying that I cannot fathom how people make something that amounts to a crazy build, but manage to make something out of it. Telling people that "this way or you're bad" is not a good solution. I have no problem trying to make the adjustment, but I'm also human. Some things people can do better than myself, and that I have no problem with. Not everyone is me or will ever think this way, but you realistically cannot expect people to learn w/o trial and error. Reality say that people are a lot more willing to listen if you don't be an arse about it.

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In the entire time I've posted on these forums I've never said or even implied that people are wrong and I'm right simply because I'm better than them. At worst I say 'I suppose it's just a difference in our queues' because I'm sure what they're saying is entirely true at their Elo. In other words they aren't wrong, but what they're saying doesn't apply to a level of play where people make less mistakes.

Like I said before I'm not against ideas. That would be stupid. I'm against things that are flat out wrong... like Victors being bad at brawling. Or lights being entirely useless. Or an average damage of 200 being acceptable (not Locust). Or a negative KDR not meaning anything. Or that W/L is entirely out of your control. Or that it's not possible to have an impact on a match. Or that Elo hell exists.

I don't have a problem saying that most of the problems listed are self-correctable (like K-D and W-L)... on the other hand some of these are not (the MM in solo generally). When you're at the top, everything looks "simple" and everything is achievable. Remember that people are not you. It's fine to have a different vision of the state of the game, but you cannot always assume people will do what they are told to do, let alone build a decent mech. Lumping everything together as "easy to solve" is not looking at the bigger picture sometimes. It's almost if you're trying to chisel the round/square peg into its opposite, and not everyone will agree on the same solution. You're not going to convince everyone of everything. The complaints with the respect to the Victor have some merit, but further evaluation in tweaking it in some form is better than saying "build this and master it or fail". Sorry... we're not the Lords or other competitive. Sorry if we disagree with your assessment.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 September 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Walls of Text and walls of Quotes... NOT HELPING.

KISS (Keep it simple stupid)

Victor needs 100% restoration.

JJ's need 100% restoration. (Heat gen + Leg damage do their job well enough)

FIX THE GLITCHY ******* ANIMATIONS DURING JUMP/LANDING (bunnyhopping) on Timberwolf, Victor, Jenner, Blackjack, Spider, Highlander, Nova.

Increase slope tolerance for ALL MECHS, so we're not getting stuck and deadstopped on map glitches, pebbles and slopes that we should be able to climb.

Ghostheat cap on (INNER SPHERE) energy weapons needs to go up by 1. (with exception to MAYBE the ERLL only)

Unnerf all PPC speed halfway back (1150-1300 MPS speed)

PROFIT.

Edited by Mister D, 01 September 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

They should just change its name from 'Victor' to 'Loser'.

[Nauht]

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Chances are there is more than one enemy mech on the field and in los of you, so if you just facetank like you're suggesting you're going to get hit CT. A lot. This is why shooting, then immediately shielding, is the preferred style of play.

Yes I get that - and already conceded in an earlier post it's good at range and as you say, multiple opponents. But when you're fighting someone it may as well be 1v1..

I'm not gonna bother asking you again about whether you aim or not - cos you do. And torso twisting doesn't help if you're timing your shots to get into the rhythm of the other guy's torso twist.

When he turns to shoot you, you go for the ST or weaker part. If he's not going for you then he's not doing damage to you either. You can aim or spew fire as you want.

But I'm done trying to argue the point with you. You know exactly what I"m talking about and yet you don't even acknowledge the point. You go off on a strawman tangent about multiple enemies.
A good debater is one that can recognise a weak point and counter it... something you've yet to learn.

[The Basilisk]

Adiuvo, on 31 August 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

[...]
Against a properly played Victor you're not going to hit the side torso over and over again, even with the agility nerf. It does not need a buff of any kind whatsoever. Every top player would agree.
[...]

Yes and....?
Where are your arguments ?
Every Top Player would agree ?
WTF ??!!!!

What is this for a choice ? You can either strap a 400XL into them and drive them like a medium on steroids and still die horribly when some Direwolf Gauss sniper decides to ceep calm and just takes out your side torso. Thats realy not difficult on any distance where a Victor is able to actually use its effin weapons !
Or you can put a standart engine in it and feel like an Atlas without armor and without weapons.

The Victor moves like and Assault but can't bring firepower.
It is has silly hardpoints and hardpoint placings and aquires an insane amount of cash to be able to mount weapons and equipment to be of any use and that could be spend on much more effective Mech.
And last but not least a Victor takes away a dropspot for a REAL assault mech that fits his role.

The Victor may be a successfull mech for a hand full of oportunistic pseudo pro elitist players disregarding their teams but in the end the Victor at its curent state is a overpowered, undergunned, underarmored, overexpensive and labored liability for its Team.

Edited by The Basilisk, 02 September 2014 - 02:29 AM.

[Viges]

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

PGI talks with various units, competitive and otherwise. HoL included. About what I can't really say, but there is a line of communication open which is a big plus compared to even a year ago.

Well, thats good to hear.

About victor, what srm loadout do you use? Limited missile tubes is a big problem for me in brawler set, 6/6/6 spread too much and using 6/4/2 breaks cooldown timing.

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Like I said before I'm not against ideas. That would be stupid. I'm against things that are flat out wrong... like Victors being bad at brawling. Or lights being entirely useless. Or an average damage of 200 being acceptable (not Locust). Or a negative KDR not meaning anything. Or that W/L is entirely out of your control. Or that it's not possible to have an impact on a match. Or that Elo hell exists.

The Elo hell is real man

Edited by Viges, 02 September 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[Viges]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

we're talking about how one chassis is almost solely nerfed for only competitive play in mind.

How do you know that? I mastered Victors, like them and I think they deserved the nerf because they were much better then other assaults. Even now if I want to play assault I most likely take Victor because of good speed and loadout. Yes now they dont dominate especially in pugs but its a good mech. Yes nerfs is a sad thing, but it had to be done.

Now Victor against clans is totally another story. Not because Vic sucks but because some clan mechs are OP as fk.

Nauht, on 01 September 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

The guy that's shooting you. The guy that's shooting you... do I need to repeat it a third time?

If he's on another target and you're shooting him it doesn't matter where you shoot him really... cos he's not shooting you back. He's just a target. But even then I aim and time my shots to go for a ST when the opportunity presents itself.

Your aim is based on predictions of your target's movement. Because of projectiles travel time. If your target moves unpredictable - torso twisting and hopping - you cant hit his st reliably.

[SgtMagor]

I cant see any reason to use a Highlander and Victor in a PUG drop now, There are other mechs, that are a better choice. Dunno if PGI will do anything for those mechs now or feel there is a need to, I already moved on and use other mechs...

[Mcgral18]

Viges, on 02 September 2014 - 03:24 AM, said:

Well, thats good to hear.

About victor, what srm loadout do you use? Limited missile tubes is a big problem for me in brawler set, 6/6/6 spread too much and using 6/4/2 breaks cooldown timing.

I'm a fan of 6+6+4, with or without Artemis. They come out in two clouds, and two of them are at 4 seconds, one at 3.

[mogs01gt]

Even though Im against making a currently great mech better, the JJ's nerfs have really hurt the Victor.

[Andross Deverow]

I do agree that the Victor needs to have its quirks reworked after the massive nerf to JJ and PPC. That being said there is a 70 ton mech now that has the mobility of an Atlas also, not to mention the crappiest hitboxes in game, the Cataphracts. Basically Cataphracts were rendered completely useless after the addition of the Clans, IE Timberwolves. It was miserable to do but I managed to master 3 chassis and then sold them all.
That being said I still believe the Victor has to have the quirks reworked but there are other IS mechs that need attention as well. Currently our IS 70 ton chassis is a complete and utter joke.

Regards

Edited by Andross Deverow, 02 September 2014 - 06:14 AM.

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 01 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Haha seriously man? Now you're dropping into conspiracy theories?

No, House of Lords had absolutely nothing to do with that. Sorry to disappoint you.

That is not what you said on reddit...were you lying then, or now?

[Carrie Harder]

Gyrok, on 02 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

That is not what you said on reddit...were you lying then, or now?

Maybe it was his position at the time?

[Adiuvo]

Nauht, on 02 September 2014 - 01:08 AM, said:

Yes I get that - and already conceded in an earlier post it's good at range and as you say, multiple opponents. But when you're fighting someone it may as well be 1v1..

I'm not gonna bother asking you again about whether you aim or not - cos you do. And torso twisting doesn't help if you're timing your shots to get into the rhythm of the other guy's torso twist.

When he turns to shoot you, you go for the ST or weaker part. If he's not going for you then he's not doing damage to you either. You can aim or spew fire as you want.

But I'm done trying to argue the point with you. You know exactly what I"m talking about and yet you don't even acknowledge the point. You go off on a strawman tangent about multiple enemies.
A good debater is one that can recognise a weak point and counter it... something you've yet to learn.

One of the axioms of your argument, what I've bolded, is wrong. Mechs can pop out of random areas whenever they want if it's an early stage of the fight. Until most of the enemy force is gone you can't rely on there not being enemies there. This applies even at close range.

I don't know if you're failing to explain yourself properly or what, but the way I'm understanding it is that you're advocating staring at an opponent, not shielding at all, and waiting until they turn out of their torso twist to shoot them. There's a number of problems with this. 1) Because you're not shielding, they're always going to hit you in the same spot even if they're a bad shot. 2) Any enemy mechs will get easy shots on you. 3) You have no response if they're using freelook to shoot. 4) If you miss even once and hit an arm, you're trading ineffectively for the rest of the fight. 4) Travel/burn time is a thing and convergence isn't perfect, so most mechs are agile enough to spread at least some damage.

I'm not disagreeing with you that you should at least try and wait until a component is exposed to shoot. That's obvious. What I'm disagreeing with you on is that there's no need to torso twist, even in a pure 1 on 1 engagement at close range.

The Basilisk, on 02 September 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

Yes and....?
Where are your arguments ?
Every Top Player would agree ?
WTF ??!!!!

What is this for a choice ? You can either strap a 400XL into them and drive them like a medium on steroids and still die horribly when some Direwolf Gauss sniper decides to ceep calm and just takes out your side torso. Thats realy not difficult on any distance where a Victor is able to actually use its effin weapons !
Or you can put a standart engine in it and feel like an Atlas without armor and without weapons.

The Victor moves like and Assault but can't bring firepower.
It is has silly hardpoints and hardpoint placings and aquires an insane amount of cash to be able to mount weapons and equipment to be of any use and that could be spend on much more effective Mech.
And last but not least a Victor takes away a dropspot for a REAL assault mech that fits his role.

The Victor may be a successfull mech for a hand full of oportunistic pseudo pro elitist players disregarding their teams but in the end the Victor at its curent state is a overpowered, undergunned, underarmored, overexpensive and labored liability for its Team.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5e04b9f52dd3a47 <-total lack of firepower there

Gyrok, on 02 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

That is not what you said on reddit...were you lying then, or now?

Right. Link please. I'm pretty sure you're just failing at reading comprehension like you do in every discussion you have with people.

Edited by Adiuvo, 02 September 2014 - 08:45 AM.