174 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

I was enjoying the Nova Prime, but since the laser nerf it's just a PITA to use and I'm considering just finishing mastering them and going back to my Kit Fox...and i don't even like lights, much less ones with the speed of mediums

[RadioKies]

Smireland, on 11 September 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

-snip-

Calling me out for being an old man after using a bigger font size and ending with a pony picture.. I'll just respond with tl;dr.

Nathan K, on 11 September 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

What? The Clans did not even win 100% in 12v12. Where are you getting these numbers?
(The "quote" button is not working for me right now. )

To be able to quote you prolly need to switch to editing mode (button top left of the textbox), I have to do that to be able to (multi)quote someone.
The 100% comment came from Russ' twitter. I checked it just now to be sure (should have done it when I first stated it). To be fair, I indeed remembered it wrong. It wasn't 10v12, but 12v12. Even though the information I posted was off, that 90% of the games were won (in 12v12) my arguement still stands because it still shows that it was way unbalanced.

The twitpost I was refering to:
https://twitter.com/...589495349657601

Nighthawk88, on 11 September 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Yesterday I got pwned by a Hunchie, I shot off my 10 C ERMLas at him and then had to just sit there and eat AC20 ammo until I died. WTF???
It feels as though IS Lasers are now better.....?

Your cERMLas outrange the IS AC20, not only that but the slow bulletspeed of the AC20 makes the thing as good as useless beyond the 270meter range (optimal dmg range). Also you are not supposed to fire all the lasers at once, thats the whole basis for the heat nerf. Try another build where you combine small lasers with medium lasers like people do in Jenners and Firestarters.
Do you only play Clanmechs atm? Then I could understand that you might feel that IS lasers are better.

As stated before, the all laser Hunchback isn't up to par to the Nova even with the heat nerf. Saying the Nova is nerfed into oblivion because other clan mechs are better than the Nova doesn't have to make the Nova a bad mech. It's like saying a Porsche 911 is a crap car because the Bugatti Veyron is better (even forgetting that the IS mechs are like second hand Fiat Multipla's).

[Dual moon wave]

Ahh.....Unfortunately I got the collection package with an 120$ e-bill half year ago.

Well, the NOVA PRIME still had a boost up to 30% cbs actually. That's the reason I select to boat with it when wi-fi service is unstable.------sigh......

and, oh, the PGI.

Why they cost so much on this "funny" balance works?

I think they need to work with new items and upgrade weapon stock. Maybe the X Pulse Emitter --an IS optical weapon in MW4M--is a good selection.

[Bigbacon]

6 mls + 6 sls stills works well as does 12 sl just have to group differently and fire in a more controlled fasion.

[Nidalap Live]

Bigbacon, on 11 September 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

6 mls + 6 sls stills works well as does 12 sl just have to group differently and fire in a more controlled fasion.

If at close range, slas-fist, mlas-fist, slas-fist tears things apart in record time.

[gl0w]

I'm more and more convinced that the nova prime CT just needs a +10% heat capacity quirk. The number is variable, but it needs that little bit to keep it from shutting down during an Alpha-ish (henceforth known as Al Fish) attack, half a second apart.

IMHO, this should be the balance goal. As far a I'm concerned it could have a negative quirk for heat dissipation too, so long as it can move after Al Fishing.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Nova-S needs perks it as well, default 6 medpulse... Yow..

[Emmykins]

RadioKies, on 11 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Calling me out for being an old man after using a bigger font size and ending with a pony picture.. I'll just respond with tl;dr.

Actually, it was an insult about your jokes. I see your reading skills are as sharp as your comprehnsion ones.

[Lily from animove]

RadioKies, on 11 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

How are you contributing by telling people to Foff and call them Trolls? Someone isn't agreeing with my biased opinion about clanmechs, better tell him to leave. GTFO yourself and take your kind words with you good sir!

But before you do:
Tell me how are Clanmechs compared to their IS counterparts? You could compare the Nova to the all laser Hunchback aka 'Swayback'. The Hunchback doesn't stand a chance. Even in testing 10Clan vs 12IS resulted in 100% winnings on the clan side... So again: your mech got nerfed? QQ more.
My IS AC20 got nerfed to hell so using only 1 isn't quite viable, now thats something one could complain about.
Yes the Nova got hit the hardest with the de-buffing of the OP clan weapons, but it doesn't make the mech suck. Terra Therma is a bad map for a lot of mechs, the Nova isn't the only one with that problem, thats the whole idea of the map... Just like a brawling mech mostly will have a bad time on Alpine Peaks.


As for 'Lily from animove'
How does something that goes for the SuperNova make it invalid? The SuperNova is a bigger mech and the comparison to that mech makes my point even more valid. Good job.

Can people with an IQ even lower than GW Bush please stop posting?

you tried to explain the nova was not supposed to fire all the lasers by lore. But yet the supernova who was by lore not even suposed to fire half the lasers by lore wihtout shutting down, can volleys both arms of CERLL without even being at shutdown needs. So how does lore judge into MWO except being a broken model of explanation. Thas inconsistent logic and even further away from any balancing MWO requires because MWO works completely different.

[Emmykins]

Lily from animove, on 12 September 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

you tried to explain the nova was not supposed to fire all the lasers by lore. But yet the supernova who was by lore not even suposed to fire half the lasers by lore wihtout shutting down, can volleys both arms of CERLL without even being at shutdown needs. So how does lore judge into MWO except being a broken model of explanation. Thas inconsistent logic and even further away from any balancing MWO requires because MWO works completely different.

People like to whine about both balance and lore. That's all it is, but really, again: TT Lore can't work here because there are no dice to randomize hits/locations. It's point and shoot. That's why 'OP things' are too 'OP.' And yes, they were very much so when they came out. This nerf helped... except the nova.

[Bigbacon]

Smireland, on 12 September 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

People like to whine about both balance and lore. That's all it is, but really, again: TT Lore can't work here because there are no dice to randomize hits/locations. It's point and shoot. That's why 'OP things' are too 'OP.' And yes, they were very much so when they came out. This nerf helped... except the nova.

this is why balance now should be moved more towards the mech quirks than the weapons themselves. Not saying weapon system don't need changes but some things would be better an quirks that a change across all mechs.

[Lily from animove]

Smireland, on 12 September 2014 - 04:59 AM, said:

People like to whine about both balance and lore. That's all it is, but really, again: TT Lore can't work here because there are no dice to randomize hits/locations. It's point and shoot. That's why 'OP things' are too 'OP.' And yes, they were very much so when they came out. This nerf helped... except the nova.

No, the nerf helped nothing, I can boat lasers on TW and DW still way too op without caring much about heat. The only thing the nerf did was making light and medium clan play harder while the TW and Direwolf don't care much. You can't balance on weapons because it does not equally distribute the changes across all mechs. Mechs need to be adjusted, especially the clanmechs which are amongs each other very imbalanced.

[Emmykins]

Bigbacon, on 12 September 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

this is why balance now should be moved more towards the mech quirks than the weapons themselves. Not saying weapon system don't need changes but some things would be better an quirks that a change across all mechs.

I agree. I think quirks could solve all the problems. I've said it many'a'times.

Lily from animove, on 12 September 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

No, the nerf helped nothing, I can boat lasers on TW and DW still way too op without caring much about heat. The only thing the nerf did was making light and medium clan play harder while the TW and Direwolf don't care much. You can't balance on weapons because it does not equally distribute the changes across all mechs. Mechs need to be adjusted, especially the clanmechs which are amongs each other very imbalanced.

Never said it fixed it. It helped dropping the range, though. CERML + module being so long range was dumb. That's all. I think balances should be per mech, with quirks solving issues, not board wide nerfs.

[Superslicks]

The nova isn't dead, even though I've now dumped 4 of my 12 meds lasers added more heatsinks, I still can do very well if I'm with the right team.
But, your right as a 12 med laser mech it is now completely useless.

[RadioKies]

Lily from animove, on 12 September 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

you tried to explain the nova was not supposed to fire all the lasers by lore. But yet the supernova who was by lore not even suposed to fire half the lasers by lore wihtout shutting down, can volleys both arms of CERLL without even being at shutdown needs. So how does lore judge into MWO except being a broken model of explanation. Thas inconsistent logic and even further away from any balancing MWO requires because MWO works completely different.

I do agree lore doesn't solve everything just like porting tabletop stats to MWO 1on1. Lore does help with some things though. Again lets get the Hunchback in here. The Hunchback can carry 9 lasers max. If you fire all 9 lasers as MLas you can fire 2 times and you're gone on a average map. Now your Nova has 12 cERMLas, try to fire 7 of those things 2 times and you end up with the same result in heat generated and more damage done (also lets not forget the bigger range the cERMlas has). So yes, lorewise it does give a good explenation. The damn thing can carry more weapons than it can effectively use. Destroy the hunch of the hunchback, you'll lose 7 lasers and only have 2 lasers left. If someone takes out your sidetorso or arm you'll lose only half the lasers. Half of your lasers, thats almost the same amount of lasers the hunchback can carry at max!
Stop looking at 1 mech or stop comparing it to a few still OP mechs and start looking at the whole picture. CW is going to suck balls when you're up against clanners with your IS faction.

[Kesslan]

I think people are missing the fact that the Cannon Lore version of the Nova with 12 Medum lasers is by TT rules capable of generating roughtly 2x the amount of heat it can safely dissapate. The reason it has so many lasers is because said lasers are relatively easy to knock out in groups. As such the excessive numbers of lasers merely serve as a backup and are not actually intended to be used for constant alpha strikes.

In fact Alpha Strikes as I recall of the Lore were a rarely utilized combat method because of the heat issues etc it generated.

I'm not saying the changes were in any way perfect mind you. The real problem is they just nerf specific mechs at any given time and so compared to X# of other mechs in the same weight class they now completely underperform. The issue really is I think more that MWO tries to balance around weight class and not Battle Value because the reality is some mechs were simply (By lore) garbage and others far superior to other mechs and that's far better represented by the BV than the weight.

[Lily from animove]

RadioKies, on 13 September 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

I do agree lore doesn't solve everything just like porting tabletop stats to MWO 1on1. Lore does help with some things though. Again lets get the Hunchback in here. The Hunchback can carry 9 lasers max. If you fire all 9 lasers as MLas you can fire 2 times and you're gone on a average map. Now your Nova has 12 cERMLas, try to fire 7 of those things 2 times and you end up with the same result in heat generated and more damage done (also lets not forget the bigger range the cERMlas has). So yes, lorewise it does give a good explenation. The damn thing can carry more weapons than it can effectively use. Destroy the hunch of the hunchback, you'll lose 7 lasers and only have 2 lasers left. If someone takes out your sidetorso or arm you'll lose only half the lasers. Half of your lasers, thats almost the same amount of lasers the hunchback can carry at max!
Stop looking at 1 mech or stop comparing it to a few still OP mechs and start looking at the whole picture. CW is going to suck balls when you're up against clanners with your IS faction.

This is an entirely wrong comparison you did, lets build a hunchback, lets build a Nova both are very similar. Except the fact the hunchback runs a lot more cool and can sustain more damage over time. I could even put a bigger engine in the HB. And when you now put 3 more ML on the nova you have to suffer in ehat even more, meaning even less sustained firepower. Just a shorter and harder starting punch in the battle.

Also, a HB has quite better geometry, I would play mine like that since most FP is anyways in one shoulder, XL is not an issue that much. And this one has 1 less dps than a Nova arms HP, and with the fact of crithchance s you cna ripp of a Novaram in one volley. The Nova will hardly achieve the same since the hunchback is a very nice and comapct mech. And when you manage to ripp off the arm the nova didn't shot in the first Volley, well game over Nova.

And I doubt IS will suck that much vs clanners, not at the competitive guys loadouits, My atlas DDC can still breakfast Drewolfs. The IS gamers still use the wrong tactics most of the time, which is why they suck. But knowing the clanmechs yourself makes it way easier to counetr them. Like not letting them reterat to cooldown. Which many still corerpopping IS pilots still do. But this is one of the worst ideas, because Clanners punch damage, and need to cooldown. But exactly that is the moment when clanners are weak. sur emy atlas's alpha's are shorter in range but not less punchy, and laods cooler. And the current maps do alow the IS to paly the strennght of their mechs. But when they run around like impation chikens into the open and run into cover like scared chickens when the first laser scratches them, well then they will fail of course. Giant CT's and low speed light, that makes facing clanners very enjoyable in my atlas.

Kesslan, on 13 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I think people are missing the fact that the Cannon Lore version of the Nova with 12 Medum lasers is by TT rules capable of generating roughtly 2x the amount of heat it can safely dissapate. The reason it has so many lasers is because said lasers are relatively easy to knock out in groups. As such the excessive numbers of lasers merely serve as a backup and are not actually intended to be used for constant alpha strikes.

In fact Alpha Strikes as I recall of the Lore were a rarely utilized combat method because of the heat issues etc it generated.

I'm not saying the changes were in any way perfect mind you. The real problem is they just nerf specific mechs at any given time and so compared to X# of other mechs in the same weight class they now completely underperform. The issue really is I think more that MWO tries to balance around weight class and not Battle Value because the reality is some mechs were simply (By lore) garbage and others far superior to other mechs and that's far better represented by the BV than the weight.

other mechs rarely care about alphaing their ass off, and we do not even speak about alpha striking on the nova. Try to Volleyfire the nova's weapons and you still run into overheating. While cannon like, the Supernova should also shutdown after half the Weapons fired, a Supernova build in MWO, does ssstain 3+ Volleys of 3ERLL's without even overheating.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 September 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

Most, if not all of the negative quirks on the Nova needs to be removed. Even before the lasers nerfs, the Nova was a meh medium mech. I'd take a Shadowhawk, Griffin or Stormcrow any day over it.

[Dark Jackal]

Bigbacon, on 06 September 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

i dont think this issue has anything to do with alpha'ing 12 lasers at once. it has to do with the fact that using base loadouts or even minor changes to it using link or chain firing groups leaves you nearly overheated after just 1 or 2 volleys .

And that's the core of the problem. The Nova Prime became a 50t Clan Jenner without the speed to disengage and cooldown!

It's performance is nerfed to the point it is no longer viable as a true and true brawler or even a skirmisher, but worse, a 'Mech stuck out in the middle not good in anything. It's no longer nimble, the arms are locked to the torso even though those arms and fixed hands eat up a lot of crit space, and the always critical circle of death is so cumbersome and slow to the point that any real consideration with closing-in the Nova is going to need some luck because it is a 50 ton 'Mech after all and does not have enough armor to weather the storm and is not fast or nimble enough to bug out.

I maneuvered my nerfed Nova-Prime and was firing in a stand still like a turret since you no longer can effectively use your arms for anything. After 2 volleys only out of one hand only I was already over heating to the point you usually bug out until your heat is down enough. Otherwise, you are just being a witness to everyone trying to knock out your quite slow nimbleless 'Mech that lost its role as a brawler and became essentially a very bad skirmisher that can only use 6 ML, that's it. The other arm is a decorative back up item that looks nice but is entirely useless to all but losing it's other arm.

At least it has Jump Jets ... .

[Alienized]

lul i drive a banshee 3m with 2 er large lasers and 5 medium lasers, cant say that its weak lol. the damage to moving targets is not really good but thats not the problem. the damage it does on standing targets is insane tho. if you can aim that is

ye it overheats like a boss but then, adapt your playstyle and position yourself so you can cooldown at cover (thats why i love terra therma in my 3M, that center is perfect for it. let loose the alpha and get in cover again)

besides a full alpha of the nova with 12 med lasers is more than double than the alpha of my banshee. yeah right.... so much for *designed to alpha*. no its not. look at the hunchback with 6 small lasers and how fast it overheats.

less qq more adaption. besides, good heat dissipation on a medium? LOL! they are made to strike hard and gtfo or support other mechs, not to stand still in the front. and if you have to be, use your weapons wisely so you can fire while retreating into safety.