162 replies to this topic

[n r g]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Harsh title, but it has some truth in it

Basically it works like this... most of the people here did not play table top, they do not care about the ins and outs of lore, they have not read every novel that was produced regarding battletech. We play with a mouse and a keyborad (most of us). This this is not a turn based tabletop game with a 2D6 roll with modifiers or whatever the battletech vernacular is/was.

It goes like this... either they get the clan / IS balance to a reasonable level or community warfare is dead. If you end up with one side of the fight with excessively powerful mech's as you guys constantly state lore dictates they should be you will end up with a community warfare group where the only players playing IS will be those with a long involvement with BT

• Anyone without an affiliation with lore will not sign up for a side where they are destined to lose most fights most of the time
  
• New players without an affiliation with battletech lore will want to have a chance at winning and therefore jump on clan tech which makes the idea of clan v's IS in community warfare pointless
  
• This is essentially a first person shooter in big stompy robots, like most other mechwarrior games before it. if you wanted strictly battletech lore this was never going to be it, and if you really thought that i think you had some wishful thinking going on there
  
• If you want strictly battletech lore, play tabletop
  
• where are all the threads in these forums asking for inclusion of any battletech rules/lore that made no sense in TT (im sure they were there, all TT games have them)
  
• If the clan v;s IS balance is not achieved, community warfare is dead before it starts, and MWO will remain what it is now. A15 minute robot shooting fest on limited maps and a few hardcore battletech guys complaining that its not TT rules and another bunch of casual players who really dont care, they just want to shoot things and have a chance of winning some matches

no one is going to play for a side that is destined to lose most of the time....

I'm much more happy over the clan nerfs than I am with some of the IS nerfs they did in the past.

The ghost heat at 2, ppc velocity, overly jump jet nerf, and then the highlander and victor. I actually feel these nerfs were far more severe than the clan nerfs

[Fire and Salt]

The highlander JJ nerf was the most excessive nerf of all.


It is totally not needed now that there is the general JJ nerf.


Hell, Highlander JJs weigh 2 tons. A HGN with 2 JJs should jump HIGHER than a Victor with 2 JJs because its 100% more JJ tonnage for 12.5% more 'mech tonnage.








But were the clan nerfs needed? Until we have some quality time testing things out in 10v12, we will never know....

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 September 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[Dirkdaring]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Thats entirely the problem! this isnt a novel. if you want community warfare to work then people have to get away from this "they are supposed to lose" bit. no one is going to voluntarily sign up to lose. Or did you pick clans so you could win?

I play IS. Which part of my jager kicking the crap out of a madcat did you not get?

I have 1 clan mech. A kitfox. Which I have played a whole 4 matches in.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lolz

[Fire and Salt]

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

If you can not understand how 10v12 will be hell on the MM process, we have nothing to discuss. If you do and still want 10 v12 please rethink your Logos.

Please explain how 10 clan vs. 12 IS will be hell on the matchmaker.

Even 12 clan vs. 12 IS is going to add the massive restriction that one team must be all clan and the other must be all IS.
Changing one of those numbers from 12 to 10 doesn't really add much complexity on top of that...

You might have to wait longer to drop in a clan mech.... but even now you have to wait longer to use heavies/assaults.


BTW I have been dropping in mostly IS 'mechs lately because all of my clan 'mechs are mastered, so I see no reason to use them outside of competitive play.

[ApolloKaras]

I got the chance to sit down and take a look at the balance.

The Nova was hit the hardest, actually I would go as far as suggesting to PGI they should add Endo on this chassis - this will never be competitive against the storm crow.

It has curbed my Timberwolf quite a bit with the Laser Vomit build. I just removed an Er Med and added a tag for the Challenge, it really helped get those points. Could they have done something else besides raise the heat/lower ranges? Sure. The Timberwolf and close distances very quick, so it needed more than just a range decrease. Right now it feels balanced... In a Timberwolf.

The other chassis have been hit hard (exception stormcrow/direwhale), which makes me believe we should be looking at a balance pass on the Timberwolf chassis. I was reviewing my numbers and my KD in the Timberwolf C is about 5.5 right now. The closest chassis I have to that is an Ember @ 3.13.... Something doesn't seem right. I believe it MIGHT have something to do with a 75 tonner with endo/ferro (7 slots each), moving at 89.1, with the ability to lose a torso and still have a 25 point alpha, with jj's that moves like a medium.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Basilisk, on 06 September 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

Since all those players who have too just 'suck it up' are mostly also those players that are wearing the founders tag and are responsible for the mere existence of this game your statement is a bit rude at least bordering to kick into the face for all those founding this game because it was advertised as *Battletech game* ( see the title on the very top of this page It reads Mechwarrior Online a Battletech game ).
What those ppl wanted to see was Battletech.
Not some other mech arcade shooter stealing from a franchise that was violated and extorted for some quicky flash sales over and over again.
If you say there is a majority of ppl who are just not intrested in the way Battletech lore ( everything in this game...the game itself comes from battletech ) functions, I'm completely fine with that.

JUST

LEAVE

GO AWAY

Play Battlefield, Hawken or Titanfall or what ever but leave Battletech alone.

I'm fine with waiting an other year till pgi got the full CW up and running with segregated Clan and IS queues and 12 vs 10 IS vs Clan maps.
That will be the point where IS vs Clan gameplay gen be balanced.
The whole point about Claninvasion and Clan tech is that it is 300 years more advanced than anything the IS can field.
The very nature of the Claninvasion gameplay should be the desperate attemp to stop an army genetically bread for war, driving mechs that are able to defeat IS units twice their size.

That this can only function with separated IS Clan rosters and asymetric drop and mission profiles was obvious to everyone but pgi just lacks the recources and technical know how to advance this features fast enough. ( also something ovious to anyone who observed MWO from beta up to now)

Take Battletech and MWO as its decendant as it is or just go away.
You won't get anything successfull out of something that just looks like BT but only viotates and perverts its nature.

This is exactly how I feel.

There is not anything at all wrong with a niche game that caters to a specific playbase in fact that is the beauty of an established IP like Battletech and Mechwarrior. A smart game developer knows that they have a build in fan base that will stick with them game through everything EXCEPT total disregard of the established IP.

Seriously though, these game developers need to get it through their heads that a game doesn't need millions of players to be successful. The genre is just too damn saturated for that to ever really be the case anymore. Well that is the case unless someone comes up with something truly innovative but developers are too afraid of failure anymore to take a chance on that sort of thing.

Anyway, back to my point. SWTOR had a development budget of well over 200 million dollars and they release in a shareholder meeting that if they managed to acquire and maintain a mere 500,000 active subscribers that the game would be profitable and deemed a success. If a game with a 200 million budget can be deemed successful with 500k subscribers, it honestly should take only 50k or so subscribers to make a game like MWO which probably only had a 20 million or less development budget a pretty huge success. That being the case, use the IP and make the damn game for the fans. Quit trying to be everything to everyone because each and every game that has came out and tried to do this has failed. Instead select a target audience, in the case of an established IP, the fans and build it for them. If it is good enough, more fans will come, simple as that.

[Fire and Salt]

Saxie, on 06 September 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

The Nova was hit the hardest, actually I would go as far as suggesting to PGI they should add Endo on this chassis - this will never be competitive against the storm crow.

Plz no endo on a 'mech that isn't supposed to have it.

If they really wanted to buff the nova, they would just unlink the ER Small and ER medium penalties. It would barely have an effect on any other mech (Timberwolf and Stormcrow can hold 7 energy, but penalty for firing 7 is quite low anyways. In either case 6ML + 1SL would be unlikely to become the dominant build for either of those chassis. Direwolf is too slow to make good use of small lasers.)


The Stormcrow is better than the nova only because the optimal nova loadouts have less range, so they are more situational. If there are ever going to be matches where you know what map they are going to be on going in, the stormcrow will get passed over for the nova when it comes to the most brawly of maps.

But as it stands.... nova is a risk. You might get alpine and then your nova will have a rough time...


If i had foresight:
Nova on that New Factory Map
Nova on HPG
Nova on Frozen City

Stormcrow on Alpine for sure.
Also stomcrow if you are uncertain of what range the battle will take place at.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 September 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Plz no endo on a 'mech that isn't supposed to have it.

If they really wanted to buff the nova, they would just unlink the ER Small and ER medium penalties. It would barely have an effect on any other mech (Timberwolf and Stormcrow can hold 7 energy, but penalty for firing 7 is quite low anyways. In either case 6ML + 1SL would be unlikely to become the dominant build for either of those chassis. Direwolf is too slow to make good use of small lasers.)


The Stormcrow is better than the nova only because the optimal nova loadouts have less range, so they are more situational. If there are ever going to be matches where you know what map they are going to be on going in, the stormcrow will get passed over for the nova when it comes to the most brawly of maps.

But as it stands.... nova is a risk. You might get alpine and then your nova will have a rough time...


If i had foresight:
Nova on that New Factory Map
Nova on HPG
Nova on Frozen City

Stormcrow on Alpine for sure.
Also stomcrow if you are uncertain of what range the battle will take place at.

There is a better way to fix the Nova, but first let's take a look at the Small and Med laser family, compared to the LL.


LL is at 88% heat
ERLL is at 66% heat,
cERLL is at 75% heat....

isSL is at 200% heat
isML is at 133% heat
cERSL is at 150% heat
cERML is at 120% heat
cSPL is at 170% heat
cMPL is at 150% heat



Hey...notice something about EVERY SMALL AND MEDIUM LASER?!?!


Not having borked heat values would be a nice start. Perhaps a perk to have their true heat values, along with the Hunch 4P...and Jenner K?

[Fire and Salt]

Mcgral18, on 06 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

There is a better way to fix the Nova, but first let's take a look at the Small and Med laser family, compared to the LL.


LL is at 88% heat
ERLL is at 66% heat,
cERLL is at 75% heat....

isSL is at 200% heat
isML is at 133% heat
cERSL is at 150% heat
cERML is at 120% heat
cSPL is at 170% heat
cMPL is at 150% heat



Hey...notice something about EVERY SMALL AND MEDIUM LASER?!?!


Not having borked heat values would be a nice start. Perhaps a perk to have their true heat values, along with the Hunch 4P...and Jenner K?

I'm not sure I understand your post. How did you calculate those heat percentages? Is that a ratio when compared to TT heat?

Only problem with that is not all of the weapons do their exact TT damage.



But generally, I agree.

The smaller lasers are too hot.

IMO the small laser only exists to keep your mech cool when you fire it instead of the larger lasers.




The IS Smalls (pulse and regular) especially need a heat reduction. There is no reason to use them, really. I have them on a locust and that is it. (Proof: No-One uses them)

The clan ER Small is OK at 4 dam / 2 heat but the planned nerf to 3 heat is a bad idea.

The clan small pulse needs a heat reduction. (Proof: No-One uses them)



The medium pulses (both clan and IS) are a little under-used. A slight reduction in heat would probably be sufficient. Somewhere around 1.0 or .5 less than current would give people a reason to choose them over the standard versions. (Proof: They are used, but not often.)


IMO the only Med/Smalls that don't need a heat reduction are the MLs and the ERMLs. You see those in combat a lot. Good use of 1 ton in most cases.




Also, I would love a quirk that removes the ML heat penalty completely for the swayback, or at least raises it to 7 so we can fire the 6 hunch lasers and the head laser together.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 September 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand your post. How did you calculate those heat percentages? Is that a ratio when compared to TT heat?

Only problem with that is not all of the weapons do their exact TT damage.



But generally, I agree.

The smaller lasers are too hot.

IMO the small laser only exists to keep your mech cool when you fire it instead of the larger lasers.




The IS Smalls especially need a heat reduction. There is no reason to use them, really.
The clan ER Small is OK at 4dam / 2 heat but the planned nerf to3 heat is a bad idea.

Compared to their TT heat values.

LL is 7, TT 8
ERLL is 8, TT 12
cERLL is 9, TT 12

isSL is 2, TT 1
isML is 4, TT 3
cERSL is 3, TT 2
cERML is 6, TT 5
cSPL is 3.4, TT 2
cMPL is 6, TT 4


But excessive percentages look more extreme. Heatsinks also aren't meant to handle 3x refire that most of the weapons have, so all additional heat can be multiplied by 3 as well...


All small and med lasers are excessively hot. Pulse or otherwise. Large lasers are all buffed with heat.

If PGI wants combat to take part at less than 600M...perhaps nerfing every single short range laser isn't the way to go about that.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 September 2014 - 12:34 PM.

[Johnny Reb]

Heh, after feeling burned from the Phoenix, new clans nerfed or not feel fun and new.

edit: cbill buys do that!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 06 September 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[Odins Fist]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

"Why The Clan Nerfs Were Needed And Why You Need To Suck It Up"

Many people were crying like little B#tches, so they nerfed Clan Tech..
That was totally expected, anyone that didn't see it comiong was naive and full of wishful thnking.

So what ever happened to NOT nerfing the Clans into the ground and 10 v 12..??

Crying B#TCHES happened... ROFL

Edited by Odins Fist, 06 September 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So lets start with this -

Even the developers of BT later said that the Clans, as they were introduced, were stupid, OP and a bad idea. They were a bad concept from the beginning and did terrible things to the franchise.

There is no obligation to follow terrible ideas when building out or remaking a product.

10 v 12 will never function outside of private matches. Ever. The idea that 1 side is way stronger than the other but the other side is more numerous works when each person controls a whole unit; telling players 'you get to play a Zergling! I'll be the Protoss Archon and we'll keep fighting until I kill you so many times that it's not fun anymore. It'll be great!' isn't going to make you a game that's playable.

Clans need balanced vs IS 1 to 1 or there is no CW. You want to run OP clan vs IS? Clans with customized mechs, IS in stock mechs. There you go, 10 v 12, do it in private matches. Knock yourself out.

Gimping the entire game so that it's fun for like 50-100 people isn't anything like a sane solution.

[valrond]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 05:09 AM, said:

So...somehow your more important than the rest of us then??? anyone who spent money supporting this game but does not have a founder badge does not count?

I actually want mwo to survive!

Its very simple, this is not marketed at strictly battletech players, therefore, you will not get strictly battletech

this game will live and die on balance or lack of

No, we're not "somehow" more important. We're the reason you are here posting and playing this game. This game wouldn't exist without the people that either played/play tabletop, played the previous mechwarrior games, and read the novels.

If you're going to piss on the battletech lore, why call it mechwarrior online, a battletech game?

[Johnny Reb]

CLans are OP and need to get in line for this an "ONLINE GAME"!

[GumbyC2C]

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

okay, Everybody who keeps saying that the MM needs fixing. Please go Read on all the works of Arpad Elo.

If you can not understand how 10v12 will be hell on the MM process, we have nothing to discuss. If you do and still want 10 v12 please rethink your Logos.

I am a forever Clans men AND I SERIOUSLY want 10v12. However it is going to take A ton of time to get something like that functional, especially for everything the MM has to do already. It confounds if you throw more complexities into an equation that already has enough variables.

I am not saying it cant be done but I rather them not waste time that could be used in other areas, at least not until after next year.

My beef with this is that PGI set the timeline in 3050. They could have chosen 3025, 2750, or if you want ERPPCs and the like 3039. But they didn't choose that did they? They chose 3050 from the very beginning. So they have already had three years to figure out how to get MM to do 10v12 (or if you had real clan mechs 5v12); three years to test clan equipment and get it right. I don't even need 10v12. How about a tonnage advantage to IS? How about no 3x3x3x3 rules for the IS team? Personally, I would have gone with a 3039 timeline and just gone from there if I was PGI. It's simpler and now just like tabletop, the clans have ruined everything due to very poor implementation. If they want everything to be equal, lets just do that then. We can start by allowing me to take the JJs off my Summoners since those are useless now anyways.

[Jonny Taco]

Johnny Reb, on 06 September 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

CLans are OP and need to get in line for this an "ONLINE GAME"!

You're right, there is no such thing as an asymmetrically balanced online game.

[Johnny Reb]

lartfor, on 06 September 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

You're right, there is no such thing as an asymmetrically balanced online game.

The Horror!!!!

[Aresye]

FatYak, on 06 September 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Why The Clan Nerfs Were Needed And Why You Need To Suck It Up

I haven't really run into issues with these current changes because I already design my Clan mechs around good heat efficiency. The amount of "sucking it up" I have to do is pretty much to the extent of, "watching my heat a *little* bit more."

Now, since most people think these balance changes are good, may I propose a similar title?

"People who are rejoicing now after the Clan nerfs and why they need to suck it up when they still fail."

Because while nearly everybody who's been complaining about Clan mechs is currently going, "HAHA! Serves you right Clanners!" after the recent nerfs, they're going to go right back into complaining how OP they are when they find out they still lose to them.

I expect to see some very similar names of players who are now saying, "Thank you PGI for nerfing Clan mechs," in a couple days or so, when they create threads saying, "OMG Clan mechs OP! PGI PLZ NERF!"