237 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Yeah if there was a Star Adder in the IS in this timeline, sure. But there isn't. Not until well after the clans lose the initiative. And seeing as theres no CW, no war, no invasion...there is no star adder.

When (if) we get there...sure.

For the time being. Jade Falcon, Wolf, Ghost Bear. Those are your basic options. The other one gets stomped so whats the point.

And yeah mods can fracture communities. Though the entire player base isn't really effected, theyre just split. Here when theres fracture it effects the total number of players. If 4000 people play this game, and 2,000 leave. You've lost half your player base. They aren't just playing a mod...they aren't playing at all.

[Ultimax]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Jager falls into that same category of a lighter mech that performs well.

Definitely and a lot of that is due to the convergence of several factors.

The Jager's best features are that it can customize it's available space for firepower (IS advantage) and you can go as high as 30+ tons (dual gauss + 5 tons ammo = 35 tons, more tonnage than a Warhawk can field).

On top of that, those 35 tons of guns are usually cold ballistics, so no need for DHS that you can't remove.

And lastly, high mounted hardpoints help mitigate running XL engines - just don't brawl with one.



Just for a moment think about it.

The 70 Ton Summoner has about 21 tons of space, my 65 Ton Firebrand is carrying 37 tons of weapons (nearly double ).

The Summoner has Clan XL, yet the Jager is overall a more successful mech (and I'm more successful in my Jagers than my Summoners).

Convergence of specific factors is more important to a mech's success than specific items of gear.


Is anyone even surprised that Jagers kill the hell out of mechs, STK/Miserys are one of the best IS assaults weathering all sorts of weapon system changes and that Shadowhawks are the best IS mediums in the game?

Convergence of factors lets those mechs perform well.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 September 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And its not bound to fail, otherwise modules and consumables would fail. Cbills would fail. XP would fail.

There are already outside of game systems effecting how you play. More is better. Not worse. And not bound to fail. Otherwise all the games out there using this stuff would fail. And they don't.

GTA5 does the honor thing even...after a while of playing like a bad guy, you only play with other bad guys. This isn't even hard to work into the MM.

Itll take longer to get a game...but if you don't like that...play by the meta standard of sportsmanlike conduct. Or be a pariah.Up to you.

But the point is, all of these ideas, are better, than adjusting stats. Youll just be adjusting the same stats again in a month, and again and again and again and again, because actual balance is impossible.

[Ultimax]

Bryan Ekman, on 06 September 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Wow! Love the effort and attention to detail. It would be interesting to compare your findings against the same telemetry we've collected!

Indeed.


You can reach Kiiyor at his office.

[KraftySOT]

And not that I was planning on spending any money supporting this failed venture of an IP I love and grew up with...but I surely would never spend actual money on something that will inevitably wane and ebb in effectiveness, based on the whims and fancies of the developers.

Surely wont spend actual money on say...a Nova...when in a few months itll get its torso twist nerfed to be like other MW games and more ghost heat added to it.

[Fire and Salt]

Well, then I will repeat:

Star Adder was not the only clan who decided that zellbrigen should not be extended to the IS, since they do not return the favor.



Perhaps you would prefer if them implemented honor in 3049, and then gradually phased it out. Of course, they would have to change the mechs to maintain the balance. Something you would probably hate.




Cbills and XP don't strive to balance the game. They exist only to create a grind. In top tier games, people basically play as if they have unlimited cbills and XP. They are running the exact config that they want, with every efficiency unlocked, and whatever modules they think make the mech the most effective.

BTW it already takes me plenty long to find a game because of this thing called ELO. An no-one in my bracket is going to stop using effective tactics because of a Cbill penalty. So it wont make a difference.

KraftySOT, on 06 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Surely wont spend actual money on say...a Nova...when in a few months itll get its torso twist nerfed to be like other MW games and more ghost heat added to it.

I would love a torso twist nerf on the nova, and I DID buy it.
You see, in lore...

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Appogee]

Awesome OP - thanks for all the work you put into it.

[KraftySOT]

Id like it too, im not saying they shouldn't do it. They should. All of those things should be in, from the start, and remain unchanged. That's my ENTIRE POINT.

And yes, ideally, if you had actual campaigns that ran. Giving up Zellbrigin should be an option after a point. Much like WW2OL or Planetside does with their "tech tree" over the course of the game.

But why would a new customer drop money on something that's going to be nerfed.

Also yes, youre right for people who have been playing for years and are top tier, that wouldn't effect them, but theyre also a small percentage of the already small player base. If the change came that you had to start playing like a clanner, the meta would shift to reflect that, and those players who now are playing out of character would be effected by the shifted meta to the point theyre either forced to change or become pariahs, that eventually, would lead to game manager intervention or even ban.

Which is far easier than constant balance changes that don't achieve it,and create new problems.

[KraftySOT]

And to be fair...once Zellbrigen is given up...there isn't balance issue any more in the lore. The IS kicks its industry into high gear and you get the quality vs quantity balance. Which is fine. Play an East Front ww2 strategy game. Quality vs Quantity is totally balanced.

In our terms it would mean 10v12.

Which is ALSO a part of the solution.

The only thing that's not the solution, is more changes to the stats.

Clan mechs SHOULD be far superior to IS mechs. Not the same, but with different burn times and colors. That's pathetic. You have to balance them another way. FASA did that **** for a reason. Their vision pays your salary PGI. Try and respect that they knew what they were doing.

Edited by KraftySOT, 06 September 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Fire and Salt]

KraftySOT, on 06 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Id like it too, im not saying they shouldn't do it. They should. All of those things should be in, from the start, and remain unchanged. That's my ENTIRE POINT.

Zellbrigen did not remain unchanged in lore.

At first the clans tried it against the IS.... and then they learned very quickly that it was a bad idea to try to fight an "honorless" unit using an "honorable" tactic.

So they stopped using it against the IS.

However, they did still value honorable combat - and they would extend it to an IS unit who wished to fight under zellbrigen.
Typically, IS units did not request it, but there are some notable exceptions.

So I disagree with your entire point. If it were to be implemented at all, it would be phased out rapidly anyways.

And no game mechanics are required for players to follow it if they agree to it.




As for me - I have never turned down a request for zellbrigen.





And yes. 10 v 12 please.
There haven't been any clan vs. IS matches yet, though (except those that were intentionally organized by the participants) so I remain optimistic that we will get 10 v 12.

+1 point if they make the groups organized into stars.

Edited by Fire and Salt, 06 September 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

I do not fully agree.

Firestarters are easy to kill with an ac20 + 3ml blackjack because you can shoot a side torso with the AC20 and then follow it up with the mediums.

Try doing that to a Jenner.



When I'm piloting a jenner, I kinda like the large CT + small side torsos because I can avoid insta-death do to a side torso hit.



With the Jenner you are protecting that CT rather than all 3 torsos, so you tend to get a much more consistent experience. You don't get side-torso ganked out of the blue in a Jenner.

Pegging any light with an AC/20 costs them dearly, not just the firestarter so this is where we have to agree to disagree because the firestarter's CT/Arms soak up a ton of damage as well, not to mention the better twisting. Maybe it's just my luck, but in practice I have a much easier time pegging a Jenner's side torsos while they circle around for another strafing run than the firestarter who will twist like a mofo and spread it all over, not to mention jenners take a lot more shots standing still/playing peek-a-boo due to lacking heat neutral weapons.

Edited by lockwoodx, 06 September 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Astrocanis]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Sorry, I play as Clan Star Adder.

We have an entire galaxy devoted to studying the underhanded tactics that the IS uses, such as using multiple 'mechs to attack the same target.

Also, we don't feel that zellbrigen should be extended to an opponent who doesn't return the favor.

In other words, "I like my OP clan mech and my honor only extends as far as my winning streak against inferior tech." Gotcha.

[Fire and Salt]

lockwoodx, on 06 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Pegging any light with an AC/20 costs them dearly, not just the firestarter so this is where we have to agree to disagree because the firestarter's CT/Arms soak up a ton of damage as well, not to mention the better twisting. Maybe it's just my luck, but in practice I have a much easier time pegging a Jenner's side torsos from the back while they circle around for another strafing run than the firestarter who will twist like a mofo and spread it all over.

Well, I don't even run full armor on my Jenner side torsos. Even still, I would say that I die 10x to CT for each side torso death.

I also carry 4 tons of SRM ammo in the side torso of my Oxide, and I have literally experienced 0 ammo explosions. (For the Oxide, I do have max armor in the side that holds the ammo.)

[KraftySOT]

Until 3054 the only two cases of not using it...was Edo, and everyones favorite Kai Allard. And only after he blew up like 4 clan mechs by abusing their use of it.

Pirates...that's another case. But they aren't relevant here. Nor is anything that happened in the Periphery. Heck without CW, its all irrevellant. And the one thing that most ensures CW will just be a glossy leader board and not really CW or some type of faction wars, is balancing the clan mechs with IS mechs. What are they going to do, return all the stats to normal when that starts? No. Itll just be arena matches with stats you can view. Nothing won or lost. Just another grind and increases all our time to find a game.

[KraftySOT]

And youll never get 10 v 12 if they balance the clan mechs stats. Itll be 12v12. Which I cant see why youre optimistic about that, when this thread and their response is proof that they intend to do 12v12. That's the whole point of doing the balance. Otherwise theres no need, because outside of brawling around in public games, theyd be balanced just the way they are. Infact you might have to reduce the burn times and such to do 10 v 12 so the IS isn't winning all of the games.

[Fire and Salt]

Astrocanis, on 06 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

In other words, "I like my OP clan mech and my honor only extends as far as my winning streak against inferior tech." Gotcha.

I am an advocate of 10v12.

I want clan vs. IS to be balanced for 10v12.




No, I will not adopt stupid tactics such as letting multiple 'mechs attack me, and not returning the favor.

CSA warned the other clans that the IS would be a tougher opponent than most of them expected. That is also why they weren't able to participate in the initial invasion - because they didn't underestimate the IS like the other clans did, so they intended to use a larger number of forces. Hence them being underbid.

Its not that I don't want balance, its that I want actual balance, not fake c-bill/honor point balance that can just be ignored when you really want to win a specific match.

[Fire and Salt]

Also - it may be too soon to really do clan vs. IS balance.




The clans have an assault mech that can do dual LBX20 or dual gauss (well, quad actually but most ppl just use 2)

Where is the mauler? Here is an IS mech that should be able to mount 2xAC20 and 2X PPC - a pinpoint alpha strike of 60 - something that can compete with the dire wolf.

The addition of an IS assault that can mount 2 large ballistics will be a game changer for the IS.




On the flip side....




The IS have 'mechs that can go 170kph, while clan can only go 106.

However, there are several fast clan omnis in lore.

Getting a fast mech will be a game changer for the clans...

[Astrocanis]

Fire and Salt, on 06 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I am an advocate of 10v12.

I want clan vs. IS to be balanced for 10v12.




No, I will not adopt stupid tactics such as letting multiple 'mechs attack me, and not returning the favor.

CSA warned the other clans that the IS would be a tougher opponent than most of them expected. That is also why they weren't able to participate in the initial invasion - because they didn't underestimate the IS like the other clans did, so they intended to use a larger number of forces. Hence them being underbid.

Its not that I don't want balance, its that I want actual balance, not fake c-bill/honor point balance that can just be ignored when you really want to win a specific match.

It is as I said. 10 v 12 is a convenient argument aimed at ensuring superiority of tech - of course with "balancing" to make sure the IS at 12 is not "superior". Which, again, means that 1v1 Clan tech will ensure victory.

Care to argue against "I like my OP Clan mech..." again?

One more thing: you aren't creche-born, you aren't, yourself, clan. You are not a 6'6" indestructible god. You are a guy in front of a computer <more or less> like the rest of us. I'm guessing your favorite superhero is Superman?

Stackpole did the universe absolutely no favors when he introduced a ridiculously implausible master race.

[Jman5]

So the Hunchback is worse than every single mech in the game except the 35 ton Raven, the 25 ton Commando, and the 20 ton Locust.

[n r g]

Dude, that's freaking amazing.

PGI needs to hire you lol; how long did this guide take to make?