49 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

Blueduck, on 06 September 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Many good points my friends; lets hope PGI begins to move in a better direction in regards to balance. Balancing my heat is just lame in most cases.

I agree Cocoa, do you think I missed anything in regards to my original analysis or is there another lever I'm missing?

I say leave the IS vs Clan differences in place, provide balance not through unit manipulation, but through in-field constraints. Allow 12v10, allow tonnage mis-matches, allow limited and restricted IS re-inforcements.

I'm willing to be open to asymmetrical and unorthodox balancing that leaves the integrity of both faction's unit intact.

[MischiefSC]

Tonnage and crit spaces are irrelevant for weapon balancing.

What what WHAT you say??!!!!!?!

They are relevant on IS mechs because you can control your available tonnage and crit spaces. Since you can not in Clan mechs it's largely irrelevant.

Now we're having to readjust to the better heat balancing on Clan mechs. Just because you can fit 6 ERPPCs on a Battlemaster doesn't mean there's any use to that. You could say the same thing for 12 CERMLs. A medium mech armed with the firepower of 3 Hunchbacks really isn't that balanced, is it? Go with 2 CERLLS, 3xCERMLs and extra DHS. The Nova doesn't have the hitboxes to brawl anyway.

The real balancing act is 'how much firepower can a Timber Wolf effectively bring to the field at 75 tons?'

We've pretty much got everything EXCEPT the Timby pretty well balanced and the Timby is pretty much 'best in class' but not nearly so OP as it used to be. Is it tough? Sure. Is it the same OP killing machine is was pre-nerf? No, no it's not.

We're about there. IS mechs need a buff now, some sweet Awesome caliber Quirks across the board.

Tonnage for weapons though isn't the balancing tool. It's largely irrelevant - hardpoints are relevant, heat is relevant. Those balance Clan weapons just fine.

[Triordinant]

I was really hoping 10 vs 12 would solve the problem. Now we're stuck with whatever less than ideal solution they come up with to make players choose to use IS 'mechs as often as Clan 'mechs because they're equal. They're not supposed to be equal according to Lore™, but if it's 12 vs 12 they'll have to be equal (but supposedly in different ways) -there's just no way around it. They may have painted themselves into a corner.

[Lightfoot]

I have been crushing Clan mechs with IS mechs all weekend. The secret is always Mechlab where IS mechs have the definitive edge.

IS mechs get an Open Mechlab and extra hardpoints. Clan mechs get a Closed Mechlab and have no Omnimech flexibility. PGI also made a ton of Clan mechs that are flops that no one will ever buy unless they are completely revamped, because of the Closed Clan Mechlab mostly. Summoner is the stand-out flop.

Mechlab let's you beat PGI's nerf of the week if you are Inner Sphere, Clans don't have a good Mechlab and are stuck. Most recently PGI speed-nerfed PPCs to being worthless junk with no strategic role to fill. All it did was make my mechs better with what I replaced the PPCs with. And it will usually work this way to side-step a poorly envisioned surprise-nerf PGI shoots at you.

So if you are not ruling Clan mechs with Inner Sphere, go back to Mechlab.

[Khobai]

Making clan mechs count as being 10 tons heavier for matchmaking purposes would almost accomplish the same thing as 12v10.

It would be 12v12 but the clan side would be 120 tons lighter.

Edited by Khobai, 07 September 2014 - 01:31 AM.

[Cybermech]

10v12 in an online game would be the worse direction possible, its not paper and a board game.
Tonnage limits would be the best choice at hand and while it doesn't follow lore its an easy balance to play.

[Fire and Salt]

10 v 12


With a battle value system like in TT, so we are not punishing our team by running a locust or a summoner.

[Batch1972]

But they're not supposed to be balanced.....

Clan mechs are supposed to be better.
Clan weapons are supposed to be better.

Clan mechs are not supposed to be grouped with IS mechs.
Clan tonnage is supposed to be 1/2 that of their IS opponents to compensate for their better mechs & weapons

PGI - Balance the game properly.

To be honest this was always going to happen .. They should have set it in 3039 with no clans

Edited by Batch1972, 07 September 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[Astrocanis]

Batch1972, on 07 September 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

To be honest this was always going to happen .. They should have set it in 3039 with no clans

This. The Clans brought nothing to the books, they bring nothing to the game. Other than OP pieces of crap that RPers can feel tough in - obviously all the ~good~ pilots just happened to be in TBR.

Tonnage limits won't work. There aren't enough clanners in anything besides DireWhales, Timberwolves and Stormcrows. Although I haven't been seeing many SCR lately.

[Hoax415]

Clan mechs brought them a lot of money, which is why we have clan mechs.

If they actually nerf clan mechs to 1:1 parity its going to probably hasten the killing off of this community. That is a lot of nerfs.

Every argument otherwise depends on the idea that these clan mechs are the only ones we will ever have and therefore IS is ok because they have more build variety.

But the reality is every clan build at X tonnage is something IS cannot match. They can't get those weapon loadouts, that many DHS, their weapons are not as good etc.

Am I wrong? Post a clan build that IS can match.

You can post IS builds that clan can't match currently. Any 55-tonner using jj's for instance. Or some combination of hardpoints that clan doesn't have access to (remember that they have 8 chassis only at this point).

There are more clan mechs. PGI likes making mechs because it funds the game. They will release more clan mechs. If you are relying on the lack of available builds for clan mechs due to limited chassis to do the balancing you are short sighted and foolish.

Again I challenge anyone to post a good clan build and then post the IS build that matches that at the same tonnage. I suspect the best you can try to do is to post a AC + LRM clan build since many believe those are the two weapon types that Clan have least advantage.

Edited by Hoax415, 07 September 2014 - 07:04 AM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I have to agree with Hoax. Playing with the pods I can almost always boat more weapons than any IS sphere mechs.

My direwolf as an example:

4 ballistics in the torso
8 lasers in the arm
2 ballistics in the arm

That beats the heck out any IS mech with the one exception being pure missle boats.

[Xmith]

Mcgral18, on 06 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Ton for Ton? Depends on which mech.

DakkaMets vs a Summoner? I'd wager the DakkaMets every time.

TimberWolf vs a Orion? I think you know the answer.

PeaveDove vs a Stalker? I'd wager the Stalker the grand majority of the time.



From what I've seen, there are only two good mechs on the Clans current selection. MadCat and the StormCrow. Both have good hitboxes, Endo+Ferro, and move quickly. They both have a fair bit of firepower as well. MadCat is actually low on pod space due to the engine, but light Clan weapons offset that.

Paul doesn't want 10vs 12, so he's gimping all the Clan weapons to make the good mechs decent, and all the mediocre mechs horribad.


Hurray Nerfinator. Please touch my CuteFox some more, it feels too OP. Those WubMakers were simply too much.

What is a DakkaMets and PeaceDove?

[Mawai]

Xarian, on 06 September 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Apparently you didn't read the last set of announcements...

I think the OP read the announcements and equally clearly sees no way to balance clan vs IS mechs on a ton for ton basis given the implicit advantages that are present to be clan weaponry and heat sinks ... i.e. improved range, improved damage and improved cooling cf IS weaponry.

However, since you can't balance the weapons themselves given the constraints ... PGI is left with the option to balance the mechs. This may mean unpalatable and unfun quirks to clan mechs ... reduced torso twist speed and range ... increased overall heat buildup or perhaps a nerf of the clan "double" heat sinks. Some brief tests I ran indicated that the clan heat cap is less than the one for IS mechs but that the cooling rate was higher. The cooling rate could be further decreased to make clan mechs run even hotter ... not necessarily fun but it is a way to further limit overall rate of fire of heat generating weapons.

Longer burn time can also be used to balance DoT (damage over time) weapons but has no effect on pin point front loaded damage weapons.

Only time will tell ... but getting clans vs IS balanced will be a significant challenge while keeping the character of clan mechs and weapons.

[Odins Fist]

Too much "CRYING" over Clan Tech that was nerfed, then nerfed again..

If Clan Tech was implemented as it is supposed to be, you would see rivers of tears flowing from the Inner Sphere...
I mean BIGGER rivers.

Have a swell day

Edited by Odins Fist, 07 September 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Blueduck, on 06 September 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

IS mechs are inferior to clan mechs and always will be.

So... if IS mech are still inferior to clan mechs why you are crying girl?

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 07 September 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Tyler Durden]

Fire and Salt, on 07 September 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

10 v 12


With a battle value system like in TT, so we are not punishing our team by running a locust or a summoner.

Agreed on the BV system. That is how I balance all of my BattleTech games and could be done here.

[Mcgral18]

Xmith, on 07 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

What is a DakkaMets and PeaceDove?

DakkaMets is an Ilya Muromets equipped with 3 UAC5s, for maximum Dakka.

PeaceDove is the WarHawk, but it simply isn't worthy of the name.

[EvilCow]

There is not much that can be done for a real balance, there are too many fundamental differences, see ES, FF, DHS occupied space, engines, quality of weapons.

Giving Clan XL engines an handicap when a torso is lost is a good idea but not sufficient in my opinion. Said that, I would not go nerfing clan tech any further.

I would enhance the less good IS mechs not just using quirks but granting some more slots, the biggest difference between IS and Clans often is just availability of slots. I would grant some more slots to the less used IS mechs and would do that in line with their "flavor".

For example, the Raven:
RVN-3L: sensors range quirk, it is meant to be a superior scout.
RVN-2X: heat dissipation quirk, one more energy slot in LT, it is a small energy fighter.
RVN-4X: jump enhancement quirk, one more ballistic slot in arm.

Consider that also in real life vehicles can receive improvements in new series, the IS is starting to react to clans so existing mechs are improved in any possible way even if without real technological improvements (no new stuff yet).

[jaxjace]

Clan mechs are perfect now, if anything they are far more fragile than their IS equivilant, a IS standard engine IS preferable to a clan XL because you will live longer. a clanner cannot lose BOTH side torsos and most of their side torso hitbox's are huge, rare is it that people shoot anything but a side torso on clan mechs.

i think along with the latests weapons nerf, the clans should get a heat penalty when losing a side torso.

by then anyone who STILL says clan mechs are OP will have not even half a leg to stand on. Clan mechs are not OP, they are different. Adapt.

[Hoax415]

Jaxjace, I challenge you like I challenge anyone who holds that belief to prove it.

Post a smurfy clan mech build and a IS mech build at the SAME TONNAGE that matches it or if you can't be bothered to do that much work post the clan smurfy link and I will do the IS build(s) for you to make the point.

You can't and you won't.

What PGI will have to do is continue to monkey with the heat scales between Clan and IS and add in the side torso Clan XL change. Then pro-clan partisans will claim that Clan XL is a disadvantage compared to IS regular engines. Which will be a crock but debatable.

As it is now I beg of you jaxjace, post a clan build from smurfy and a same tonnage IS build that matches what the clan mech can do or hell comes close.

You will be forced to give up either:
10+ max speed
cooling
firepower

You cannot match clan mechs with same tonnage in those 3 categories it is literally impossible. The only logical clan mechs are worse arguments rely on making clan mechs focused on AC and/or LRM and claiming the clan versions of those weapons are worse.

I will clarify here as well. I find balancing clan and IS equal tonnage 1:1 to be outright folly. By definition it results in clan mechs that are just as bad as IS mechs which defeats the entire purpose of adding them to the game as anything but a cash grab. Which proves they cynically left them as pay2win vehicles until it came time to release them to everyone and now suddenly they notice what was obvious all along they are crazy overpowered.

Assymetric combat for CW and a match maker that takes individual mechs into account and correctly views clan mechs as stronger and balances teams accordingly in solo queue were the solutions.

PGI has chosen incorrectly once again and is now setting out to do something that can only go two ways:
-failure, where heaviest in weight class clan chassis are still stronger than IS counterparts.
-or success where they make clan mechs more powerful on paper but not in actual combat because of major heat difficulties and asinine weapon systems. Imagine every clan weapon is akin to the CERLL where its a chore to use.

Edited by Hoax415, 07 September 2014 - 02:30 PM.