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Moving Forward, A Discussion On Moderation


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#101 Cavendish

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:42 PM

View PostTor6, on 07 September 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Mass banning of all your vocal critics who are communicating about your game on external sites truly is the Final Solution to the malcontent question.


Mea culpa, missread your post and wrote a whole reply based om that error. My misstake.

Edited by Cavendish, 07 September 2014 - 12:45 PM.


#102 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:49 PM

I actually happen to agree with some type of paywall.

If you're not going to support PGI with at least the minimum of $7 bucks for MC, which you will need to spend anyway on mechbays to actually enjoy the game, you're probably not going to bother posting anyway.

$7 bucks is nothing.
And at least it will weed out the random trolls that aren't even going to support PGI.

Still allow reading access, just not posting ability in any forums except the SUPPORT/HELP sections?
New guys absolutely need to be able to read the Support/help sections.
Other than that, seems fair.

Edited by Mister D, 07 September 2014 - 01:02 PM.


#103 IllCaesar

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:01 PM

I mostly approve of this. Mostly. There's one thing I'm cautious of, and one other thing that I'm genuinely dislike.

First, I'm cautious of what counts as "trolling". I'd be a liar if I said that I haven't been disappointed by the development of this game, and I'm sure plenty of you guys at PGI feel the same way, having missed deadlines in the past. However, saying "I'm disappointed in this game" isn't trolling, but I fear it might be moderated as such. Being genuinely disappointed with the game isn't trolling, being upset about something isn't trolling. Making an extremely imflammatory post like "You guys defending this game are idiots!" or "PGI are scam artists!" are, and while that should be moderated, I don't think that honest feelings about the game, if they're negative, should be moderated if they're not being violent or inflammatory towards other posters or PGI. I know it probably hurts to spend years of your lives on work that you genuinely believe in, and see that people are upset with the result, but that isn't grounds for moderation. I've seen other developers moderate genuine criticism, genuine negative feelings in the past, and never, ever turns out well for anybody involved. I don't worry that you guys are tyrannical with your moderation, I just worry that you might jump the gun, moderate things not because they broke the rules but because they upset you due to your attachment to the game. Don't let those feelings control you and blind your judgment.

The second thing that I dislike is how people may face consequences for posting negative things about the game elsewhere. Look, if somebody on this forum starts harassing a member from sites outside of here, I would understand that, but general badmouthing of members and the game elsewhere, without it constituting actual harassment, I would let go of. If people are mad, they're going to rant. As long as they're not harassing or harming anybody in this community, I think that behavior outside of the MWO forums and online matches should not be held accountable here. I mean, if you had access to all of our Twitter and Youtube accounts, half of the forum would be gone within the month XD

Lastly, I'm unsure about the paywall. Yes, it will cut down on troll accounts, but it will create a community of exclusivity for free-to-play players. Remember, every free player is a potential paying customer, but you have to woo them first. You do not woo them by barring them from access to the forums, keeping them from a community that would welcome them with open arms. Don't do the pay wall, it will turn off so many new players from the game. MWO is difficult enough to adjust to, by essentially banning people from the forums unless they've paid you money? Thats just a slap in the face to free-to-play players and all potential new players, free or not.

Now, all of those criticisms aside, I hope that moderation makes these forums a much more welcoming place. I've seen how a lack of moderation among the community can scare away players, old and new, from the game - I've even been that player a few times.

#104 Coolant

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:04 PM

good to hear Niko...heartily approve

#105 Thronde

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:07 PM

It's unsurprising PGI would ban a bunch of naysayers solely because "They are bad apples and we've really been meaning to do this for a while hurf blurf". Especially when their forums are mid-meltdown over the pure unadulterated fleecing of their customer base and the blatant lies and misinformation being actively spread by the lead devs (Namely Bryan and Russ).

Post in conflict with Ghost Heat? Ban
Post in conflict with 3PV? Ban
Post in Conflict with moderation transparency? Ban

This "forum" is the highest form of the so called "Brown Sea" of shitposting of any forum I've ever seen, and 90% of it comes from PGI's side. Blatantly lying about players and forum posters and banning them and guildmates because they aren't afraid to post the truth with evidence, or to have the 2 brain cells to rub together to not get on their knees and take another load of PGI's crap, but instead calling them out on activities that flirt with illicit business practices.

Fix yourselfs PGI, then your forums won't be a problem. Also, grow a pair of balls.

#106 Thronde

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:12 PM

Way to delete a perfectly valid post for calling out PGI. Yep, your new scrapheap of s project will really get far alienating your already dwindling fanbase! That's smart business guys!

Edit: To be more on topic, I don't disagree with moderation or banning long time problem posters. The issue I have with Niko and the current reich of moderation is the constant pandering to PGI's fragile egos. They are banning many vocal critics of things in the game most people never wanted (GH/3PV) for reasons completely unrelated to MWO. PGI is not the internet police, anything said on /r/MWO or r/Outreach should have no affect on someone's voice here. If that's going to be the case, shut down the forums all together and jsut use Reddit or vice-versa.

Edit 2: I guess Community Warfare finally did release. In the forum of the Forum Gestapo vs the Community!

Edited by Thronde, 07 September 2014 - 01:23 PM.


#107 MonkeyCheese

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:17 PM

Considering this is the only place I come to for MWO discussion I guess I will pop my head in as I just want to have fun with this game considering the money I have put in, and I still do. If I am not I will prob just quietly take breaks and await further development and patches not go bananas like other people do.

I have always thought of myself here as more of a logically thinking debater than one of the usual "White knight" or "black knight" labels and I am sure for the most part Niko would agree with this. Altho I did apologize for my attitude during that screenshake/crosshair shake "saga" but that really did make me fell very ill and want to throw up.

GD is a mess anyway as I have said in past posts around here it is nothing but constant XX is nerfed or please nerf XX, or clans are OP or clans are not OP or the constant LRM discussions. Most of this I try to just not click on and just discuss things that are relevant like the current "AU ping issue" because I am Australian. I know it wasnt a popular decision but honestly I thought the no GD forums were better and had less filth you just needed to do an extra click or two to get to the relevant sections

For the most part these days It feels like I seem to live in the Battlemechs section of the forums discussing builds and sometimes I can be in the house marik and new player sections unless it is patch day or there are things to discuss from the announcements.

#108 Kaio-Kerensky x10

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:24 PM

Nuking your own official announcement threads because people don't like the announcement isn't going to make the forums any less toxic.

#109 CocoaJin

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:26 PM

I suggest a "Haters gonna Hate" section so you guys can direct habitual and un constructive persons and post to spew their venom in an appropriate locale...and a locale to dump such threads or posts from legitimate threads into.

That way haters have a place to be miserable with like minded other miserable people.

#110 Why Run

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:31 PM

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Hello MechWarriors,

As you are hopefully aware by now, tomorrow will be perhaps our largest downtime ever. This is to accommodate the move to our new data center. There are many advantages to the new data center such as being more cost effective while at the same time potentially offering greater latency performance to many our non NA customers. Besides that, there are a couple of really important reasons why you might want to make the effort to download the latest Public Test Client here and participate tomorrow...

De-sync Bug: This public test will have our latest improvement to the Crytek networking code to work properly for MWO. It would be very helpful if we could get as close as possible to regular Thursday population levels to see if indeed the issue has been improved/resolved. To be clear we can't be sure of the impact of our change until we see the bug in a high load environment, similar to live production. Also keep in mind that this isn't a fix to remove all lag from the "Internets", but to specifically address the de-sync bug.

Clan weapon balance test: As you know we have a large task on our hands to figure out the very best way to handle balancing Clan vs IS before the competitive aspects of CW come online. Over the past weeks we have been running various tests, and this public test, will be the latest one. In fact the last time we made a change to Clan weaponry there were plenty of people that stated we should do that on the test server. Well here it is, on the test server and ready for you to test. I am going to avoid telling you any of the details of what has changed. I am going to avoid telling you any of the details of what has changed. My hope is that you get to try these changes out and share your first-hand experience with us before the numbers lead to any preconceptions. Even with these changes, the Clan weapons still do more damage, have greater range, for the same or less heat, tonnage and crit space. In short they still very much fulfill the promises as originally stated on how the Clans would look and play. Within a week of the completion of this Public Test, I will follow up with another post on exactly what direction we will be taking on Clan vs IS balancing.

Thanks for your help and support. Please let us know what you think.

________

I'm just going to leave this here. This is why we have a forum problem. We're constantly and consistently insulted. We are told to "test the weapons" and provide feedback, which is blatantly ignored. And then folks wonder why the forums blow up. MORE than that you didn't even fix a true error that numerous players pointed out. Which is a complete insult to your paying customers.

Censorship didn't work last time, it did not improve the game, and it did not improve the community. Why are we back in the same place, refusing to learn from history?

Edited by Why Run, 07 September 2014 - 01:34 PM.


#111 MonkeyCheese

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:31 PM

View PostCocoaJin, on 07 September 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

I suggest a "Haters gonna Hate" section so you guys can direct habitual and un constructive persons and post to spew their venom in an appropriate locale...and a locale to dump such threads or posts from legitimate threads into.

That way haters have a place to be miserable with like minded other miserable people.

That is what K-town is for.

And ontopic I say keep K-town but just let people create posts there.

#112 BLOOD WOLF

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:40 PM

View PostZharot, on 07 September 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Nuking your own official announcement threads because people don't like the announcement isn't going to make the forums any less toxic.

No but a persons use of words will. Even if it is Criticism, how you word it makes all the difference in the world

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 07 September 2014 - 01:40 PM.


#113 CheebaMech

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:55 PM

[color=#00FFFF]freedom of speech is an essential right. We firmly believe that it is. We also firmly believe that we, as a business, may reserve our right to remove patrons who abuse that freedom[/color]

Nice, customer service straight out of Orwell's 1984.

#114 Why Run

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 01:57 PM

View PostCheebaMech, on 07 September 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]freedom of speech is an essential right. We firmly believe that it is. We also firmly believe that we, as a business, may reserve our right to remove patrons who abuse that freedom[/color]

Nice, customer service straight out of Orwell's 1984.


What they meant is they support free speech with which they agree. Otherwise, you best be paying to keep talking.

#115 Bront

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:00 PM

Just to weigh in here...

I've done some extensive admin/mod work for forums. From large public websites to more personal forums to a "unmoderated" forum that's moved to a mildly moderated forum. It's not an easy job. You can't please everyone, and you have to tread a line of letting people talk and occasonally get angry, while not letting things get personal or letting posters bait one another. Beyond that, you need to deal with the anonymity of the internet, which results in people not really connecting that there are real people that they're talking to. The internet can be an ugly place.

I appreciate that the staff here doesn't want to let the forums degrade into such an ugly place, and appreciate the line PGI wants to talk. Folks are passionate about the Battletech and Mechwarrior universe, and that passion can spill over into conversations, sometimes positively, but often it can turn a normal conversation into something poisonous. It's not easy to control, and I'd be weary of a hard limit on problems, as if you intend on making a game that lasts for years to come, it's quite possible for someone to get banned because he earned 2 strikes years ago.

Nico, you want to make these forums a great source of information, a place for players to go with no fear and learn, as well as a cool place to hang out? Here's some things that need to be done IMHO:
1) Post every announcement and update on the forums. Period. I understand that Twitter and Facebook exist, and there's nothing like some direct links from the devs and staff, but far to often information from Twitter or Facebook never makes it to the forums in any official capacity. Such examples include the Phoenix mech previews, some of the clan previews, details on upcoming patches and fixes, etc. The forum needs to be the spot for most of this information, even if it's not the first place it appears.

2) Cleanup stuck announcements while giving players a good place to react to things. No announcement discussion thread for patches is a shame, while we don't need the announcements about the clan invasion to be stuck anymore. Make it easy to find new information and not intimidating.

3) Moderate as evenly as you can. If you're consistent, then everyone generally knows what to expect. I realize this is hard, as it's a multi-man job, but inconsistant moderation makes more people angry than it does help. It also tends to flag inocents more often than it should.

4) Allow infractions to expire after a time. So I got heated once or twice in 2012? Well, it's 2014 now, so at least one of those shouldn't count against me, as that's a pretty long time to go as a good citizen.

5) Avoid perma-bans. Sure, they happen, and are needed at times, but given the forums is also a place to get tech support as well as occasionally do in game things (like reserve units), simply giving folks the preverbial time out on occasion should more important than permanent removal.

6) Don't be one-sided. There will be plenty of criticism of PGI/IGP/MWO. Please don't use moderation to shut that down.

7) Name & Shame for players should still be a no-no. To much of a trial by mob. For mods? I think letting folks know someone has been banned isn't a bad idea at times. It gives people both a reference point for where did folks go, and what is acceptable and not. Don't need to make a huge deal about it, but letting folks know moderators where there isn't a bad thing IMHO.

8) More interactive feedback from the devs/team. Doesn't need to be a lot, but Russ, Bryan, Paul, and yourself occasionally making posts here (even if they're discussing builds they like or in the off topic area) make the team feel more accessible. It also gives players the feeling that their opinions are being read and matter.

9) Provide some positive feedback. For a while, there were some forum awards for helpful as well as amusing posts. As a positive member of the community, I had hoped I might win something (Hey, a few days of premium time or some small MC is still a nice thank you), but they disappeared.

Hope this feedback helps. I've generally been happy with the moderation here, and haven't seen it get truely venomous, but I'll admit my filter for that might be better than others.

View PostCheebaMech, on 07 September 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]freedom of speech is an essential right. We firmly believe that it is. We also firmly believe that we, as a business, may reserve our right to remove patrons who abuse that freedom[/color]

Nice, customer service straight out of Orwell's 1984.

Not really. Freedom of Speech means the goverment can't restrict it. The public and private corporations can react however they want.

Edited by Bront, 07 September 2014 - 02:10 PM.


#116 Chavette

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:00 PM

Sounds like a semi-indirect witch hunt to me... I don't know man.

#117 wanderer

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:05 PM

View PostCheebaMech, on 07 September 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]freedom of speech is an essential right. We firmly believe that it is. We also firmly believe that we, as a business, may reserve our right to remove patrons who abuse that freedom[/color]

Nice, customer service straight out of Orwell's 1984.


It's a private forum. You can say what you like- as long as you don't say anything that breaks the rules in their private space.

But the truth is, there is only one thing that will clear the toxic fog around this game.

Do it right. Do what you said you intended to do, in a timely manner, like you mean it. And do it well.

A good game ends up having it's own forumites drowning out anyone who's just there to troll.

A bad game has so many trolls because they dislike the game's failures so strongly they feel removing it via sufficient negative feedback will be an improvement. When you get people seriously asking to take the MW license away from your company over and over again and entire communities dedicated to displaying your game's gaping flaws...nothing you will do can stop those effects- other than improving the game.

You could lock down the MWO forums into a hugbox of enforced pay-for-positivity. It'll just mean the people who despise the game's current course will be louder and given plentiful amounts of game-turds to chuck over the walls. As an effort to stifle angry customers, it's actually worse than useless.

Just fix the game or close it down. Those are the only two solutions that will keep the constant rain of anger out of MWO's domain.

#118 Felbombling

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:05 PM

My take has always been that the most negative of posters on the boards are people who don't like being deceived to the financial benefit of PGI/IGP. I'm specifically talking about promised features that don't even seem to be jotted down on a cocktail napkin at the point of being hyped... most likely during a sales push for a rather expensive package of Mechs. Being quoted in a magazine article, posting plans in social media or being videotaped standing on stage before a microphone, it doesn't seem to matter. Vastly overoptimistic promises will be made in pursuit of cold, hard currency... with little to no explanation or apology when said promises turn out to be empty.

Let's be clear when we talk about why or why not some posters act the way they do. This forum was a Utopia before Closed Beta.

#119 Roland

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:16 PM

Many of the most vocal critics of PGI were once PGI's most ardent supporters.

This includes many of those who have now been permanently banned.

Perhaps PGI should question the actions that have led their customers, many of whom have spent over a thousand dollars on this game, to turn against them.

Silencing them is not going to solve the problem.. because as long as PGI continues to make decisions along the lines of those that poisoned their relationship with some of their biggest supporters, they will continue to alienate their most profitable customers.

I say this sincerely, and in the hope that it will help you get yourself back on track:
PGI, the problem is not with your forum users. The problem is with you, your employees, and your policies.

View PostNikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:


Those have been bugged since the Data center Migration. Jon hopes to get them back up soon as he can while he has been otherwise focused mostly on the post-migration routing issues being reported to us.

I'm not sure you understood the post you responded to here.

I believe that he was referring to the original announcement thread about PGI's upcoming game, which apparently (according to Bryan's first post in the current thread) contained responses which PGI didn't like, so that thread was nuked.

#120 Asmudius Heng

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 02:16 PM

I have no issue with fair but tough moderation.

Abuse and rediculous behaviour have no placeon an official forums I agree, they can go to reddit and ***** and moan etc.

As most have said though, passionate criticism is different and should not be moderated as long as it is not abusive and there is a fine line. Some people never know where the line is though.

However, and as many have said ... PGI, you have dug your own hole here from years of neglecting the voice of your players. Poor decision BADLY explained and so forth.

I do not hold a grudge though, there is no other game that indulges my big stompy robot fetish quite like mechwarrior in any of its forms, I want this game to be better but I will never shy away from calling out BS either.

If PGI REALLY want to come to a fresh start with the community then they need to step up to the plate and start putting in too.

Meeting deadlines was the first step and I think you are starting to do that but still in very small increments, but the most important thing is that you immerse yourself in the wider community not just a small section.

The developers need to get off twitter and start having in depth discussions on the forums with players and start admitting when there are problems or tricky game balancing issues. There is no shame to say that LRMs are difficult to balance for all Elo for instance. THere is nothing wrong with saying that you cannot add new feature X because of working on system Y etc

You need to talk to us like adults and explain the WHY of your decisions not just a glib overview.

And guess what, if some idiot jumps up and down and has a tantrum like my 18 month old, moderate thier asses. AS LONG AS YOU RESPOND to those who are critical and civil. When you ignore everyone because one person called you a poo poo head everyone starts getting anxious and feeling ignored.

Communication as I have been saying for over a year now is PGIs biggest problem. You actually have one of the most fanatical player bases of many games who will actively go and promote your game everywhere if they feel listened to, and actions follow up words.

Ban abuse, interact a lot more on THIS forum, and you will see a change because I have seen many passionate players become abusive ones only because they feel marginalised and ignored not because they are trolls at heart.

Keep your house clean PGI, but if you are inviting us into your house then you better be good hosts too.





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