271 replies to this topic

[Chemie]

How do you define negative activity on third party sites? I mean, if someone takes my MWO name and creates a reddit account, am I now to blame for what they say and get banned here?

[DEN_Ninja]

waterfowl, on 07 September 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

This guy is correct. If you want healthy forums, you need the developers to post on the forums.

This game and Planetside 2 are so bloody annoying, screw twitter, screw reddit, use your own official venue to communicate with your customers!

Look at how CCP does things.

https://forums.eveon...?g=topics&f=270

LOOK AT THEIR FEATURES AND IDEAS FORUMS! LOOK AT ALL THE LITTLE >Dev TAGS! Open one of the threads, and look at all the constant Dev replies! Where the **** is that here?

Why aren't the MWO forums like this?! Where are the freaking developers? This place feels like a non forum! It's like a ghost town, the only use for them is to talk about builds, there's never any healthy game discourse because devs can't be arsed to post back.

It DOES happen fowl but not as often as we'd like. The last major time we had a dev give us huge responses is the Karl Berg thread. Personally I think the forum really does need the space to allow for Dev's to interact with players and take criticism where it due. A place that is heavily moderated but allows for this interaction.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

i say leave the forums as they are, players ignored by the developers, helping other players....bans, because you can't take criticism is a joke.you announced your new game to people wanting you to finish this game, and got backlash?what a surprise.there is still no voip, come to a stop when typing in the game (still)

or shut the forums altogether and and put those guys on game developement.

[waterfowl]

Gorantir, on 07 September 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

i say leave the forums as they are, players ignored by the developers, helping other players....bans, because you can't take criticism is a joke.you announced your new game to people wanting you to finish this game, and got backlash?what a surprise.there is still no voip, come to a stop when typing in the game (still)

or shut the forums altogether and and put those guys on game developement.

yes, they better set those moderators to work on programming a voip system Making emotionally loaded name calling threads isn't criticism by the way. Hopefully the banhammer gets swung on abusive people and the devs post here when they can post without being called names or accused of being money grubbers

Edited by waterfowl, 07 September 2014 - 04:30 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

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Would you agree with the idea that we should revert to a 3-strike system for most general misconducts in the aforementioned Blue category?

It always depends on the level of "abuse". Someone who posts 3 times a single line of text to reply (which may go against the forum regulation in "more complex feedback" - as a rough example) should not get the same pain as someone who threatens people personally 3 times over. The 3 strike system is a 1-0 system without gray-scales between the "lines" - thus it is rather bad in a surrounding, where things can be misunderstood, because it is text and not a verbal communication. Instead of 3 Strikes, give a player a pool from 1-100 and a violation of rules causes the user to get points - when he reaches 100, counter-measurements will be taken on the account of the user - whatever they may be. There should also be a decay, like 10 points per week or so.

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It is often said to ignore those who actively ignore what you say or twist it towards their own ends. Given the prolific nature of some of these individuals, many of whom seem to spend whole work-weeks on the attack, should we make stronger efforts to remove those players who actively and repeatedly refute, deny, or ignore staff statements and announcements?

Depends on the things that went on beforehand. If - by any chance - the Devs ignored player feedback that was intended to solve a problem and now the players are ignoring Dev feedback, it looks pretty even to me. Of course, you cannot please everyone, but the amount of intelligent suggestions and feedback that went to waste in the feedback-topics is something that will whip back. So to conclude this point: If both sides would listen to each other, many problem would not be there in the first place.

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Do you feel it's more important for moderation to be fair and consistent (at the risk of seeming cold or authoritarian); or to handle matters on a case-by-case basis to offer individuals the benefit of the doubt (at the risk of seeming to offer favouritism or being manipulated)?

I've seen both. Ridiculous and unnecessary measurements as well as ridiculous favours for certain sides. A skilled mod should find a balance between those, as this is a social community and not some kind of court marshal.

Quote

Is our Name & Shame policy fair to the privacy of players, or should we be publicly flagging banned/restricted players who have been repeatedly abusive in the spirit of being more open? What about the potential risk of "bullying the bullies"?

The only ones who would suffer from it are the bullies themselves, which nobody likes. So, nobody would be sad if you would bully the bullies. In fact, it would be some kind of education those people may not have received from their parents - as blunt as it may sound. Still, there should be a certain level to be overstepped, to be flagged. Everyone can have a bad day.

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What kind of "positive" moderation systems (e.g. Likes. Rewards) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?

Most people are interested in the game here and they want the game to be good, because they are fans AND spend money on it. Thus, stuff that helps the game should be rewarded. Like for example a good suggestion, a good working example etc. Sites like smurfy show, what is good.

Quote

What kind of "negative" moderation systems (e.g. Restrictions, Penalties) would you be interested in us investigating or improving?

Negative... from the forum alone or from within the game too? Negative should be usable against all kinds of people, from player to Dev. Give a scale of positive and negative replies, so that a post can get for example (-8 and +3) and show red and green on both sides of a line. You see in one view, if something is positive, negative or controversial.

Quote

Given the increased use of alternate accounts at any time a player is suspended or banned, would you rather see the following: A) Increased thresholds on the Recruit restrictions. B ) Pay barriers placed on the forums for new accounts. C) [Your own recommendation].

A, B is - to be honest - the worst you could do.

Quote

Without naming individuals or citing cases; If you could offer a simple, polite and constructive suggestion to the staff and/or volunteer moderation team, what would it be?

React on constructive feedback. Take you time to filter out good suggestions, relay them and let a Dev get in touch with the one suggesting something. Then the player gets feedback back. What about a 1-hour teamspeak session from invited players to discuss certain suggestions? We have NGNG and it should be possible to put in player feedback that normally do not get a voice.

Edited by Thuata Dé Danann, 07 September 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[Illegal Username]

What level of moderation concern is when someone is calling PGI out on it's **** policies?

[SectionZ]

Honestly, the main reason I don't post on these forums anymore (I think this makes post all of like, 25. My last two were in March 2013, regarding wonky to the degree of "Official solution is to reinstall" patching.) is all the horror stories about the moderation (See also, why I've never made a post on an EA forum). Where people who haven't even posted for months notice that they had been banned in that last wave of forum bans with the whole PR spin of preemptive protection.

If you can get banned for stuff months old that the mods had to specifically go looking for, then why risk posting at all if you have anything but praise for every single design decision, bug, patch delay or whatever you think might not be the most great thing actually now that you stop to think about it.

Bad enough you also have to worry about them looking for things (Or just 'happening to notice') to ban you over on entirely different websites that you're posting on, because you're afraid to say "Hey guys, anyone else miss when you could fire more than two SRM6 without a massive heat penalty? I was looking forward to that Orion-VA coming out until I found out using both arms within 3 seconds of eachother means I might explode" on the official website so said it somewhere else.

I mean, use whatever grade of rules you want when it comes to your own forum. It's yours. So long as any new rules are not RETROACTIVLY applied. It looks good if you list clear new rules, and then two days later ban somebody for flagrantly breaking them. It doesn't look quite as good if you make new rules, and then ban somebody for something when those rules or (or personal interpertations of rules) were not in use. Or do so before those rulse are even posted up for discussion with just a "But they totally deserved it, we swear".

However, handing out suspensions or bans or giving certain people extra scrutiny because of something they said on reddit or wherever is just creepy, and you can't ignore it like you can ignore some "troll" posting words at you even if you never read or make a single post here. Becuse then the people stalking you are the people who are supposed to be "protecting" you from mean internet people.

Please do not be creepy internet stalkers, even if it was inadvetantly. It makes me worry that you'll go back into my all of 25 posts, see I posted an unmodified scoreboard that got moderated out (I forogot about the name/shame rules. When posting about how happy I was for surviving the "All solo vs nothing but premades" bug") and go "See, known troublemaker. Ban." Or dig up old threads on entirely different websites and decide I was a little to loud with my opinions regarding Ghost Heat or Alpine in "Third party channels".

You can ignore trolls. You can't ignore moderators going out of their way to find reasons to ban people, especially if those reasons are "Well, on this OTHER website they said something agasint the ToS or my personal interperation of them on THIS website."

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

im sure niko and ego didnt make this forum site, they just babysit us.im talking 'bout the other guys we dont see.

[orcrist86]

Certainly name and shame keeps the occasional offender from l public embarrassment, but I would like to see a follow up email from mods after the investigation stating that they have completed their investigation and action was taken as per mwo policy and guidelines. No specific days or info need be given but this follow up will let us know the mods take our requests seriously, and are actively working the complaints.
3 strikers should have period to complete those strikes in... As in 3 strikes in a 6 month period... Not 3 strikes ever. This gives people the opportunity to change behavior... Also to hang themselves. This status should be visible to them.

[Impyrium]

Tichorius Davion, on 07 September 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

Niko, A while back we had the Karl Berg thread in off topic. It produced some of the BEST Dev to player discussion in a long time. Is there any way to get a specific thread or forum for individual devs or teams to view? It narrows down where some folks need to look for questions and discussions and you don't need to have the Dev's that actually read the forums to scour through some of the toxic threads.

These thread/forums can also be heavily moderated to prevent derailing and trolls.

I'd definitely like to see that, but to be honest... not until this forum is cleaned up a tad, or people stop the constant attacks based on things that happened long ago. I'd be worried a thread like that would simply become an opportunity for some people to vent anger directly.

I'd really like to see personal attacks stop, too. It frustrates me so much when I see someone call out a developer from PGI, especially Paul. Obviously this community has built somewhat of a culture around disliking him, which I think is just immature. It's a surprise you guys still have the will to continue developing considering the attacks you get based on your best visions for MWO.

Granted, I don't always agree with the direction, and there have been mistakes made. But they tend to be blow way out of proportion, and sometimes it's the classic case of "I think I can do better", but without fully understanding the context in which you guys are working in.

I was reading through some of the dev posts from the very beginning, before, and things seemed so much more... friendlier. It wasn't DevsVSfans, it seemed like devs working with fans. Yet it seems that can't happen now without someone disagreeing vehemently, or taking matters into their own hands. Everyone has an opinion to where the game should go, but the problem is that everyone's opinion is different. There's very little cohesion.

So here's hoping everyone can get over what has happened in the past, forgive, and work together to keep the game going- because it certainly deserves to.

[MX Duke]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 07 September 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors,

"I don't come onto the forums, it's full of trolls."

I would like to offer up a description of "trolling".

• When you post your opinion, and some else posts a conflicting opinion, reposting your opinion in an attempt to sway them is trolling. Say your piece and go home. I can understand a constructive argument, but repeating yourself 15 times in one thread should get you banned, cause repeating the same argument over and over is trolling.

• Posting disparaging remarks, like "that's Stupid", "This is !@#$", You have got to be hosing me" is trolling. This is not considered constructive, and repeat offenses should get you banned.

• Any and all of the above disparaging remarks pointed at a Dev, PGI, IGP, a moderator, or support should be a banning offense. Trolling official personnel is an attack against said personnel and should not be encouraged.

• Once a thread has had repeat offenses as listed above, the thread should be considered dead and locked.

If these four points were incorporated into the forum rules and enforced, these forums would be a cleaner and more constructive place for the Dev's communications.

[HUBA]

You need to to fix the source of trouble not the effect. If you are going to wipe the forum clean it looks nice but the bad impression is still there. Last night I had a desync in the first game and in the last game (rage quit) if someone had ask me about my opinion I had say "this is the last piece of ****, don't play it!" also posts here or at reddit would hat this tone. It is very hard to get people excited but very easy upset them.


There are so many things you can do.

Quote

/mwo - The official reddit for Mechwarrior Online -> "An echo-chamber for those who have been banned from our services for repeated abusive behavior." -PGI

Really you have an official reddit for trolls? good job

ok, serious. Bring us more informations where we want it. It is much better know, thanks and a shout-out to all the community manager, moderator and volunteer, you make a great job. But it can be done a little bit more. Important informations should also have a place in game and not only hidden somewhere in the forum or even on a "side" reddit. For example changes of the weapons would be nice to know. A player who have his build and liked it last week, notice all of a sudden that it is now a bit clunky (or if he is lucky broken) and has a hard time to figure out why. I know patch notes, but the PPC wasn't mentions in any official way (only as a forum post) and there are more ninja patches.

Balance carefully. A minor change of about 10% is not a big deal and can be done in a patch also twice if needed but big changes should be tested on a PTS for at lest 24h to give (almost) every one the change to test it and give a feedback. btw feedback, do someone care about? A little FB of the FB would be nice just tell us the main concerns people had and whats your opinion about it.

Quality. Most important for a good opinion of your product is quality. People tent to see negative points bigger the the positive. If you have 10 good and 1 bad aspect on you product it might tend to bad overall. Funny side note fans and developer tent to do it the opposite way. They can pick out a good point to negate 10 bad one.

Usability. Also some little things that make it bad. There are actions you do every day and you have to click twice OK. And then is there an action you can only do once without any confirmation... maybe the other way would be better? (Unit creation need a confirmation if you finally find a Tag with is not taken)

Thanar76, on 26 August 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

((...))
Choose your Tag:
"PUG"
This Tag is already in use.
"GUP"
This Tag is already in use.
"UGP"
This Tag is already in use.
"UPG"
This Tag is already in use.
"PGU"
This Tag is already in use.
"GPU"
This Tag is already in use.
"AAA"
This Tag is already in use.
"AAB"
This Tag is already in use.
"AUA"
This Tag is already in use.
"ARG"
This Tag is already in use.
"GNAA"
Congratulation your unit "Pugglebies" has know the Tag "GNAA".

And so on. Maps have some serous issues (frame rate, invisible walls, glitches, disappearing mechs) that ruins the fun. Or just disliked but you have to play it. Matchmaker cannot make even matches without considering the different strength of the mechs (mastered vs new, stock vs. meta). Elo didn't work or maybe I have really 2000 with some noobs and some high elo player, nobody can check it. Here would a league system nice and easy.

Some of this points might help to prevent many of the rage posts and take away argument for the trolls (not that they need some). All other violations of your rules and obviously official laws can be handled as usual.

Edited by HUBA, 07 September 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[GDFan]

Reach out to others in your industry (Blizzard) for some ideas on how to proceed. For example, the Diablo 3 forums were very negative and vile because of the perceived differences on how the game should have been (from the view of the Diablo 2 fans). They have done a great job listening to the player base and including them in the process to make the game better.

[MX Duke]

Chemie, on 07 September 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

How do you define negative activity on third party sites? I mean, if someone takes my MWO name and creates a reddit account, am I now to blame for what they say and get banned here?

No, IGP and PGI personnel can't be handing out punishment on this site for actions taken on Reddit or Twitter, or any other site. This would be a conflict of interest.

The moderators of those individual sites are in charge of that.

Edited by MX Duke, 07 September 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[TKSax]

I love change the Rules and banned people for breaking those rules before they were in place, and of course the ban is for them speaking out "not" on your forums... nice...

[RustyBolts]

My biggest complaint with the forums is the "Nerf" crowed that PGI appears to listen to. These guys want instant gratification and an easy button to wins and cry nerf the moment they lose to something. Just about every single time I die it is because of my own pilot error and something being OP.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Some of the nastiness and negativity that has existed on these forums have caused depression and negative thinking. It's unfortunate and sad where some people seem to making posting their lives. And not just posting, but posting negativity. Thinking that being a pseudo intellectual in the form of a Bill ORiley or any of his ilk (whichever side of the political/ideological spectrum they stand). People who strive to be ignorant and mean spirited, doing things they chastise others of doing. It's as if their parents raised selfish, spoiled, disrespectful children who don't know the benefit of actual dialog and conversation. These are people who are big online because they can't be big anywhere else (which is incorrect because it's been shown that caustic personalities do very well in a middle management type of spectrum. Just enough power to push people to supposedly necessary whims while not being big enough to effect larger pictures).

I see the value in moving these voices away from this player base. While the game is not perfect, there are people effected all the time due to negativity even when it's not their own initial reaction. There were always be spaces for people to be malcontents (eesh, I peaked at the non moderated forums on another board and its as if some people have taken a personal vow to hate a game company (with all the social injustice in the world I can only wish these people will wake up and fight for things that deserve such reaction).

Anyway, I am not really adding anything other than it's a shame that people can and will attack others for the very behaviour the display themselves. I thank you for taking a time to write this out, I hope the forums becomes a place with honest and open critique as many of us know the idea of crowd sourcing to get the IP, hoping another company is going to pick up the IP, or any of the other crazy half-thought out ideas will never come to fruition and some of us don't want to wait another 10+ years for a proper mechwarrior game.

Please PGI... Please. Make CW, new maps, and the tweaks necessary to make the game vibrant and not just viable as people have a very warm emotional sentiment with battletech and it's been proven people will spend loads (I myself, even though poor, have managed to spend over a thousand directly and another indirectly in supporting this game. I'm only one person... and I'm poor.) I love mechwarrior, I love my clan Diamond Shark, and I love many of the people I've met and have gotten a chance to play with over the past two years of seeing this game grow to where it is today.

<S>

Khan DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa

[Kilo 40]

this has been needed for a long time now.

when the..."culture" of a community is as toxic as this place can be, it just feeds on itself. New players enthusiastic about the game either get shouted down or made to feel like they are a minority whose opinion doesn't matter. meanwhile those with minor grievances are encouraged to post as often, and as hyperbolicly, about them as possible because that's what the "popular" posters do. meanwhile a great many others just walk away never to even bother posting.

I nearly did all three at one point. when I was mocked by several posters for saying I had fun for playing the game, when I was upset that PGI changed the release date on for the Orion(after I had saved up a ton of c-bills to buy it), and then I nearly stopped posting. The only thing that kept me here was the patch notes every couple of weeks. then eventually I got more of a hand on the community and some of its, shall I say...louder members.

as for my opinion on moderation, all I ask is that you please keep it fair and have the rules apply to everyone equally, and if it looks like it wasn't applied equally please explain why. nothing is more frustrating than getting into trouble on a forum for something you honestly felt was ok to do, then to see someone else do the same and no action gets taken against them.

[Mack1]

If you listened to the fans and did not keep falling back on your promises this would never have needed to be implemented.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Ugh.

Basically you want to silence your critics again, this is precisely why people have such a low opinion of the moderation on these boards, that and the fact that nobody listens even if someone makes an in depth factual feedback post.

People should not be removed and banned for disliking PGI or MWO at all. Lock threads past a certain threshold sure thats pretty standard.

The only forums you should really {Godwin's Law} control are the important ones, patch feedback, comstar focus group for example places where the indepth discussion should take place.

General discussion and off topic will always be as they are on other forums, stop trying to control them.

Bans to players should be reserved for threats to people including staff, racial abuse, homophobic comments etc that is it.
Disliking your product is not a reason for being banned.

You are where you are because you made it this way, you hype with no intention to live up to the promises, the poor communication the list could go on.

You reap what you sow, and your only way out is to start delivering.

Edited by DV McKenna, 07 September 2014 - 06:15 AM.