49 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

Just listening to the Town Hall thingy.

I had to stop when he said that the pillar of Role Warfare had been added. He went on to explain that people haven't stopped playing lights in an arms race scenario.

But that doesn't mean people are playing lights in the Role that they were designed for. They are supposed to be Scouts with some harassment capability. How often do you actually see them scouting?

Move to a fringe, peak. Someone turns in your general direction and PING red triangle over your head. Swarm, die.

Repeated ad nauseum until lights stop scouting.

If what is in game is considered Role Warfare, then they have set the bar way too low.

[Clit Beastwood]

RussianWolf, on 10 September 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Just listening to the Town Hall thingy.

I had to stop when he said that the pillar of Role Warfare had been added. He went on to explain that people haven't stopped playing lights in an arms race scenario.

But that doesn't mean people are playing lights in the Role that they were designed for. They are supposed to be Scouts with some harassment capability. How often do you actually see them scouting?

Move to a fringe, peak. Someone turns in your general direction and PING red triangle over your head. Swarm, die.

Repeated ad nauseum until lights stop scouting.

If what is in game is considered Role Warfare, then they have set the bar way too low.

Um, dude - did you even pay attention during the lance challenge? Lights running a UAV and Narc/tag finished that challenge quicker than pretty much anything. It's pretty obvious they do the weekend challenges to get specific statistics. In this case, I'd be that it was a way for them to test role based rewards.

[Prezimonto]

RussianWolf, on 10 September 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Just listening to the Town Hall thingy.

I had to stop when he said that the pillar of Role Warfare had been added. He went on to explain that people haven't stopped playing lights in an arms race scenario.

But that doesn't mean people are playing lights in the Role that they were designed for. They are supposed to be Scouts with some harassment capability. How often do you actually see them scouting?

Move to a fringe, peak. Someone turns in your general direction and PING red triangle over your head. Swarm, die.

Repeated ad nauseum until lights stop scouting.

If what is in game is considered Role Warfare, then they have set the bar way too low.

Don't let them fool you, role warfare doesn't exist outside of a little synergy between TAG/NARC/UAV and LRM's.

They count the addition of spotting XP and the UAV XP bonuses as adding role warfare, which is laughably shallow. Until ALL weapons groups combine with serious synergy from secondary/utility equipment/spotting the SINGULAR role of spotting isn't even fleshed out.

And there's honestly maybe 2 roles in the game: Deal damage, helping other players with LRM's deal more damage. That's pretty lame for a complete set of ROLES.

Edited by Prezimonto, 10 September 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[RussianWolf]

Fierostetz, on 10 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Um, dude - did you even pay attention during the lance challenge? Lights running a UAV and Narc/tag finished that challenge quicker than pretty much anything. It's pretty obvious they do the weekend challenges to get specific statistics. In this case, I'd be that it was a way for them to test role based rewards.

sorry, but real scouting doesn't involve exposing yourself. UAV you have to basically run up to or through the enemy and is a 1x deal. NARC, likely the most effective as you can at least minimize the exposure and have more rounds. TAG is a joke. visible all the way across the map, a laser pointer right back to your position. They did well in the challenge, but so did the mediums and heavies that carried the same items

Now if they made it were only 0-45 tonner could carry those items....maybe. but right now. Role Warfare....Nope. Not seeing it..

[Ph30nix]

PGI idea of role warfare

Role 1 Target
Role 2 Shooter
Role 3 Guy who stands in box
Role 3 Guy who rages
Role 4 Guy who QQ's
Role 5 Spammer
Role 6 Boat
Role 7 Naive player who's hopes and dreams haven't been crushed yet.

[Ahja]

They have only a hint of role warfare left in LRMs ,TAG and NARC. However almost every change they have made to the systems in this game have radically changed any chance of role warfare and a company the seems to say 10vs12 is to much work will never make the big fixes that are needed.

[Clit Beastwood]

RussianWolf, on 10 September 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

sorry, but real scouting doesn't involve exposing yourself. UAV you have to basically run up to or through the enemy and is a 1x deal. NARC, likely the most effective as you can at least minimize the exposure and have more rounds. TAG is a joke. visible all the way across the map, a laser pointer right back to your position. They did well in the challenge, but so did the mediums and heavies that carried the same items

Now if they made it were only 0-45 tonner could carry those items....maybe. but right now. Role Warfare....Nope. Not seeing it..

Incorrect. In the below example from Merriam Webster, generally considered an authority on words, their definitions, and their uses, there is no mention of avoiding exposure. Sometimes it's helpful to make sure an enemy sees you. I'll get a few chasing me, and pop a UAV while retreating. That way, they're so into chasing me they wind up under my UAV, where my missile boats can take them apart. You can pop a UAV without being detected, it just takes planning and careful execution. Sure, there are some times when you can't do it undetected, but that's life. I don't understand why people don't get this... just because *you* can't do something doesn't mean it's *impossible*. The TAG has other uses, i.e. temporarily indicating an enemy so your teammates that aren't on voice can see what you're looking at. You can also use TAG to distract - distracting an enemy mech is a valuable skill for lights... example - I run into a group of enemy mechs, they get all frenzied because they think "oo, light, easy kill!" - I weave around them, then start moving more behind them... I pop a uav and start running away... *behind* them. My team then closes distance and what do they see? The lightly armored backs of the enemy team.

Definition of SCOUT
[color=#7A7A7A]
intransitive verb[/color]
[color=#000000]

1

: to explore an area to obtain information (as about an enemy)

[/color]

[Lyoto Machida]

Role warfare in this game? It's already here.

You kill/damage as many things as possible in any class of mech to earn cbills as quickly as you can.

[Khobai]

Russ basically said the bare minimum that was promised was delivered for role warfare.

But we expect them to do more than just the bare minimum. If were going to continue buying premium mechs from PGI then PGI owes it to us to make each of those mechs as different as possible from other existing mechs, otherwise whats the point?

So role warfare is not just all four weight classes having a place in the game. Its also every mech within each weight class having its own place in the game. For example, a commando should not be outright worse than a jenner just because its 10 tons lighter. It should be better at some things and worse at others, but no less viable.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I have to agree, I think role warfare is in game and that 3 of the 4 so called pillars are also in game. I think the 3 that are in game all need some work. This could be a big end of year for Mechwarrior when they add the fourth pillar and improve on the other 3.

Like i said before i didnt see the decals being added coming, who knows what else they have in the works that may be added. Either way i guess they are going to start work on entirely new features in the beginning of next year depending on what most of the players want.

[Elizander]

Modules that leave ghost traces of enemies spotted (even when not targetted) on the map that allies can see (these fade slowly after a few seconds would greatly help in pug games. Not everyone has the time to type out enemy locations and half the time people don't read chat.

[Johnny Z]

Elizander, on 10 September 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Modules that leave ghost traces of enemies spotted (even when not targetted) on the map that allies can see (these fade slowly after a few seconds would greatly help in pug games. Not everyone has the time to type out enemy locations and half the time people don't read chat.

Yep modules, these are the items that make lights playable and stronger, the shock absorb comes to mind as the most usefull for lights and mediums.

I completely expect them to add jump jet modules at some point. This would explain the huge nerf to JJ's. They are useable now, but with say an added 10% at tier 5 they come back into a more usefull role again although not as strong as before. I think pilot modules will explain alot of their so called nerfs and also some of role warfare etc.

[Quxudica]

RussianWolf, on 10 September 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Just listening to the Town Hall thingy.

I had to stop when he said that the pillar of Role Warfare had been added. He went on to explain that people haven't stopped playing lights in an arms race scenario.

But that doesn't mean people are playing lights in the Role that they were designed for. They are supposed to be Scouts with some harassment capability. How often do you actually see them scouting?

Move to a fringe, peak. Someone turns in your general direction and PING red triangle over your head. Swarm, die.

Repeated ad nauseum until lights stop scouting.

If what is in game is considered Role Warfare, then they have set the bar way too low.

The maps are too small, the game time to short and the objectives are too simplistic for proper role warfare in my opinion. If we had reasonably sized maps with long timers and complex objectives, the roles of scout and support would be far better supported in the game.

Edited by Quxudica, 10 September 2014 - 02:50 PM.

[VanillaG]

You will never get role warfare in the solo queue. In the solo queue you do not know who you are going to be teamed with so a mech with TAG and Narc is going to be useless if non of his teammates have LRMs. Likewise a team with a large amount of LRMs and no spotters but the enemy has large amounts of ECM so the LRMs are useless. Couple that with the fact that scout/spotter types of activities have very little xp and cbill rewards compared to kills and damage.

If you want role warfare to work in the solo queue you need to up the rewards. You start by giving the spotter a percentage of the damage done, spotting damage, as well as assists and savior/defensive kills if your spotting helped killed the mech. Once you do that it now makes sense to play a scout role.

[Asmudius Heng]

Incentive based roles do not work IMO. People will game whatever pays best rather than work for the role and the team.

Roles come from mechs being GEARED for certain roles - excelling at some things, but not being good at others. The open customisation and lack of diversity in MWO leads to there being less roles ... ECM is about the only differentator and JJs behind that.

Mechs needs to be loosly classified into general roles IMO then quirks can be much easier to assign to make them excel at it, and negative quirks to stop them bleeding into another roles space etc.,

[Johnny Z]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 September 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Incentive based roles do not work IMO. People will game whatever pays best rather than work for the role and the team.

Roles come from mechs being GEARED for certain roles - excelling at some things, but not being good at others. The open customisation and lack of diversity in MWO leads to there being less roles ... ECM is about the only differentator and JJs behind that.

Mechs needs to be loosly classified into general roles IMO then quirks can be much easier to assign to make them excel at it, and negative quirks to stop them bleeding into another roles space etc.,

Agreed jump jets and ecm a some of the few defining features installed on mechs, but then you have size and speed as well.

They did make a right move by bringing in pilot modules. With only a few slots on each mech it lets the pilot define the role rather than just the mech. An extremely smart move that allows players even more variety when it comes to mixing and matching load outs for almost any desired role or combination there of.

Im not kissing up to anyone, this is just how it is in game and likely to get fine tuned over time.

I forgot to mention anti missile system. Anyway they might even add other systems over time, but the basis of role warfare is in the game no doubt

Edited by Johnny Z, 10 September 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

The modules should have been divided into roles such as support, weapons, sensors or something.

Then each mech could have had a more defined end game role. Some would be able to maximise weapons, other would be able to maximise support or scouting etc

Because they lumped them all together they missed a HUGE opportunity to differentiate mechs and create more role warefare engagement.

I am still very annoyed by this.

[Johnny Z]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

The modules should have been divided into roles such as support, weapons, sensors or something.

Then each mech could have had a more defined end game role. Some would be able to maximise weapons, other would be able to maximise support or scouting etc

Because they lumped them all together they missed a HUGE opportunity to differentiate mechs and create more role warefare engagement.

I am still very annoyed by this.

Yep the module ui is a mess lol. A guy can go cross eyed trying to find the right module at the moment.

[terrycloth]

I did some scouting in the solo queue. I was in my Stalker, though.

[Asmudius Heng]

Johnny Z, on 10 September 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Yep the module ui is a mess lol. A guy can go cross eyed trying to find the right module at the moment.

It is not just the UI i was talking about it was how they classify modules. Consumables, weapons and mech modules do not help role warfare since everyone can just load up on artillery.

See my initial post about this so i dont derail this conversation:

http://mwomercs.com/...13#entry3552313

It garnered a lot of support for a post buried in a thread but PGI didn't see it as a solution.

The current system does not give mechs roles, it just makes upgrading them for more power the way to go - I do not want to feel like some sort of egotist who knows best but i am still amazed that they stated the changes to modules enhance role warfare.