55 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

Mcgral18, on 16 September 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

How about that hardwired Active Probe in the Koshi....It's over 10% of the pod space!

6.5 tons when you nearly max that armour...

That's 6 med lasers like a jenner, at only 25 tons.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Or....
Jumpjets can actually let you jump..

[Empyrus]

Mister D, on 16 September 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Or....
Jumpjets can actually let you jump..

This is what should happen. Seriously, all JJ equipped mechs have problems with jumping.
Increase power, speed and distance for jumping. It is not a balance issue, for long fast jumps are considerably harder to execute than the current leisure rocketing. Skill is an balancing element in itself.

[Mcgral18]

Dracol, on 16 September 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

That's 6 med lasers like a jenner, at only 25 tons.

No, actually. You can only fit 4 E hardpoints on all current timeline variants. If you want the ECM (and AP) you can only have 2 E hardpoints, or 1 E and 2 M. Arm mounted, and there aren't any torso mounted weapons. All in the 24IS+A arms.

It also as 3 external heatsinks, so it's always going to have an inferior cap to a Jenner, or any 30 tonner. Most 25 tonners have this issue.

6 JJs are a little excessive, but I don't see this as a good mech. The Fenris is faster.


It could very well use that extra ton.

[Lightfoot]

Ghogiel, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Uhh yeah we can.

Well, not and have any gameplay balance. Summoner is either the super-agile heavy bounding across buildings and hills and turning on a dime or the jump jets are replaced by other weapons. It sacrificed those other weapons in TT for agility it does not have in MWO's version and jumping height ability MWO's jump jets do not grant.

[Kassatsu]

Jump jets need to be actual jump jets. You know, that let you jump. Preferably upwards of 200 meters (maybe upwards of 75 vertically) with enough jets on a small enough (or fast-moving) mech. Not this silly awkward hover thing we have now.

Having actual jump jets would at least give SOME legitimate reason to pilot a Summoner. Nova is rather good dps if you aren't being targeted, but is balanced out by being super vulnerable while attacking (or in general really). Summoner has no real benefits. At all. It's just there. Giving it proper jump jets would at least allow it to make SOME use of the mobility it should have had in the first place.

Edited by Kassatsu, 16 September 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Empyrus, on 16 September 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Omni rules state quite clearly that any equipment fixed to the base chassis cannot be changed (fluff reason for fixed equipment is simpler construction and easier maintenance, and sometimes odd design choices).
Fixed JJs should stay, those should get a considerable buff though, to make the mechs really benefit from their fixed equipment.

ive been looking for the Rules/Lore which say the Nova/Summoner have their Jump-Jets Fixed to the Chassis,
i as of yet havent been able to find any, could you please post your sources? thank you,

Lightfoot, on 16 September 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Unfortunately PGI nerfed jump jets so you don't get the rated altitude anymore, so the agility is just not there. Let me jump over hills and small buildings easily in the Summoner and you might have a point. Since we don't actually have TT Battle Tech jump jets on these mechs we should be allowed to remove them. Nerf is as nerf does and useless equals the ability to remove said useless item.

You can't fairly have TT when it suits you and turn it off where it doesn't.
Also the Summoner is not incredibly agile in any way. it handles like a normal average Heavy Mech.

lartfor, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

2 of summoner's and nova's Jump Jets should be removable... JJ thrust amounts on heavies need to be addressed as well... SMN with 5 jj should not be getting out jumped by a victor with 4... SMN legs should have +15% thrust modifier as well as the sane balancing of thrust between assaults and heavies.

I agree, with both, which is why i made this topic to address it,


from what i've experienced making Jump-Jets or perhaps just Leg Jump-Jets optional in Omni-mechs,
will i feel make the Nova/Summoner, as well as other up and coming Omni-mechs more competitive,

Edit-Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2014 - 11:30 AM.

[process]

Whatever we end up with, I think Clan jump jets should behave the same across the board, whether making them removable, or locking jump jets to omnipods with jump jet hardpoint. For instance, TBR-S gets a locked jump jet in its center torso and 2 per side torso.

Jump jets, among other things, need to be balanced across IS and Clan.

[Xarian]

JJs should have significantly more thrust (think triple current thrust when using 4x JJs), and the thrust should be directly proportional to the number of JJs. As in, 4 JJs gives you twice as much thrust as 2 JJs. That's still not the case despite the previous balance pass.

Also, JJs should be locked on every mech and omnipod that has them. Inner Sphere mechs should also have the option to completely remove JJs on the Upgrade screen, similar to switching between Endosteel and Standard structure.

Weights and critical slots should be rebalanced to take the above into account. The critical slot rebalance would be fairly simple; just make "double strength" JJs that count as 2 JJs for thrust, weigh twice as much, and take a single critical slot. The weight rebalance could be done using Quirks for individual mechs that make all of their JJs weigh less.

Doing this allows JJ mechs to have a fundamentally different purpose than non-JJ mechs. They are significantly more mobile, but you sacrifice a lot to gain that mobility. Some mechs would be JJ-specialized, such as the Summoner and Spider 5V, and those mechs would get quirks that benefit their JJs such as decreased heat, increased thrust, more JJ fuel, and lower JJ weight. Other mechs would only have a few JJs for minor mobility gain, such as the Timberwolf-S, and would not gain these quirks.

[Empyrus]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

even if Quarks are added should the player be able to remove some or all of the Jump-Jets?

Absolutely not.
This game does not need any more dumbing down. We have stealth armor ECM, no repair and re-arm, and whatever else... Just keep the omni-rules as they are.
If JJs can't be tweaked, then give the Summoner a pair of energy chest hardpoints, or additional arm hardpoints. Gives more options but doesn't really unbalance it, given its low podspace.

[Andi Nagasia]

this Topic is that, if the Jump-Jets could be removed it would add 2-5 more tons to the Nova and Summoner,
even if Quarks are added should the player be able to remove some or all of the Jump-Jets?

Empyrus, on 16 September 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Absolutely not.
This game does not need any more dumbing down. We have stealth armor ECM, no repair and re-arm, and whatever else... Just keep the omni-rules as they are.
If JJs can't be tweaked, then give the Summoner a pair of energy chest hardpoints, or additional arm hardpoints. Gives more options but doesn't really unbalance it, given its low podspace.

ECM is being reworked, so that will change,
perhaps Jump-Jets will be on the rework table after,
with CW we may yet see the Return of Repair&Re-arm,

this change will not Dumb down the game its merely adding another option,
this isnt about removing the Omni Rules/constraints, about clearly stated Fixed parts,
this isnt about the Fixed Adder Flamer, or being allowed to change structure and armor,
its about these 2 mechs and their Jump jets, removing 2-5 Jump-Jets wont break MWO,
but it may help balance these 2 mech under performers, by adding a simple option,

Edit- spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 September 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[SgtMagor]

I would never pilot a Summoner without jump jets, but its a nice thought about not having hardwired equipment on a mech that peeps may not want on it!

[Gorgo7]

Remove option for Timerwolf JJ's and allow Summoner to remove all JJ in legs.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think removing these restraints will inspire others to play these two mechs more competitively,
balancing them in relation to the StormCrow and TimberWolf, when they come out for C-Bills,
even more so when Wave 2 Clan Omni Mechs Come out and be come available,

[Foxwalker]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:

i think removing these restraints will inspire others to play these two mechs more competitively,
balancing them in relation to the StormCrow and TimberWolf, when they come out for C-Bills,
even more so when Wave 2 Clan Omni Mechs Come out and be come available,

As said earlier, if the JJs worked as they should I would have no problem with them. Summoner should be much more agile.

[Warma]

I think a better solution would be to give clan mechs like Nova and Summoner the ability to mount endo+ferro. That way they would not be outclassed by the better built mechs.

This would not remove the Jump Jets of the Summoner or Nova, but it would make them best at something.

[Curccu]

Warma, on 19 September 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

I think a better solution would be to give clan mechs like Nova and Summoner the ability to mount endo+ferro. That way they would not be outclassed by the better built mechs.

This would not remove the Jump Jets of the Summoner or Nova, but it would make them best at something.

Well even with Endo/Ferro Timber will outclass Summoner and badly
But it would make summoner a lot better

[Gorgo7]

Basically, if the summoner could remove 3 or 5 of it's jump jets the tonnage freed-up would allow a far greater diversity in terms of missile launchers and auto cannons. These it needs very badly. Currently it is armed as well as an IS mech...a stock inner sphere mech! The engine it sports is huge and the five tons of jump jets truly eat into it's load-out. Further, it's hard points are hopeless. Low slung arms with a maximum of four energy weapons. It has great ballistic hard-points in the torso but my 65 ton Catapult-K2 can carry a better load-out even though the inner sphere weapons weigh more!
To truly see the potential of this mech it requires flexible jump jet combinations. It has Ferro armour, that is enough. The jets though...

[Joseph Mallan]

Scratx, on 15 September 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

For the same reason the majority of mechs are deliberately unoptimized. Fluff~

I'll disagree with this. It was more to make a definable Nerf in my opinion. Then Fluff was used to mask the reason.

Karl Streiger, on 15 September 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

Because anything else would have made all Clan Omnis in the board game over the top - not only TimberWolf and Stormcrow (you know about the MK1 Omnis)

Indeed I do. Our Clan Coyote had them.

[Andi Nagasia]

which is why i made this topic, i know there are players on both sides to fence,
here at least we can discuss what would be best for the Clan Fixed Jump-Jet-ers,

personally i feel the upgrades may be harder to implement,
than switching the Fixed Jump-Jets, to removable ones,
but i do feel both would-Could work,
something needs to be done,