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The Lost Art Of The Dog Fight


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#1 Quxudica

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:43 AM

warning, long somewhat rambling post

I find more and more I miss being able to toss lasers and other smaller weapons onto a mech and dust it up. It used to be a true test of pilot skill, like a dogfight who ever could keep their guns on target in the dance of death longest while keeping the opponent off balance won. But those days are long long gone.

These days nine times out of ten if you even try to engage you are no longer in a fight with your target, but with every LRM user hiding behind a hill, meaning you get to run or die to the without ECM. On the rare occasions you don't get showered with aim-assisted death from above, you find yourself in massively overcrowded maps, where everything is just a fur ball. Pretty much all of the old maps are no longer big enough for the player size we now have, meaning the chance for a light or fast medium running into their opposite number(s) and duking it out in a battle of the scouts is long since gone. If you are in range of one target on all but the newest maps, baring Alpine, you are almost certainly in range of two - three more. Which of course means the victor is no longer determined by the pilots, but by the mob.

The final nail in the coffin is the games total dedication to FLPPD. I remember Jenner fights in closed beta using small lasers that felt like real battles, like a dogfight on the ground. It took quite a bit of skill, especially back when the horribly broken knockdowns still existed, to keep your opposite off your back and still slot in enough shots to bring him down or send him home wounded. you could duck and dive between large mechs in a hit and run with reasonable certainty that you'd still be in fighting shape was you ran back out, wouldn't do much damage but it caused chaos. Sadly this to is gone, those intense dogfights died with lights being able to reliably carry much longer range weapons with much higher firepower, and the all to often occurrence for a single larger mechs Alpha to render you Effectively Dead means the game just isn't what it used to be.

Effectively Dead, something I don't see often mentioned but as an old pocket rocket jokey its something I became very familiar with. Simply put you don't need to kill a mech to "kill" a mech, a light is pretty much out of the fight (barring totally incompetent enemies) the moment that leg hits yellowish orange, since at that point it's now easily pickable with today's high alpha damage. An XL mech is pretty much done the moment it's side torso hits that same level. Of course I imagine your first response to that is.. "Duh", as this is how the games meant to function. once your armors gone you are in trouble.

The reason this has become a problem, is that its taking less and less time to hit those health thresholds as the games matured. Improved hit registration means more if not most shots actually land (a good thing), Alpha strike values have gotten higher and higher (not really a good thing in my mind), heat management tools has steadily increased the number of those Alpha's that can be shot off before a shut down. It's reached the point where a heavy mech can effectively lose a side torso with only seconds of exposure. I've seen a Jaeger's side armor vanish within moments of it peaking around a corner, at medium range to a single mech (my mech).

I can focus fire lasers with perfect heat management and above average precision all day long, but it makes little difference when front loaded damage bursts can strip medium armor in two seconds of exposure and heavy armor in only a couple weapon cycles (and that's 1v1). It's more effective for me to push the muzzle of my srm/lbx shadowhawk down the throat of enemy mechs than it is for me to carefully aim banks of lasers, doesn't really matter what kind, to shear off critical parts and kill XL's. beyond a couple gimmick builds, it's become a game more concerned about volume of fire, and especially volume of simultaneous fire, than it has about thoughtful aim. And really, why would it not when an entire mechs weapons loadout automatically finds the same point of contact as long as you fire them all at the same time.

I'm not one to fret about progress, I like that new techs have been introduced and that the game evolves. Just seems like the path the game has taken has resulted in some of it's finesse being lost. Sometimes I wonder what things would be like if FLPPD took a large blanket nerf.

Edited by Quxudica, 03 November 2014 - 04:43 AM.


#2 Turist0AT

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:48 AM

I dog fight in FS9 with 8SPL all the time, one of my best mechs..

FIRESTARTER FS9-K 208 113 95 1.19 129 122 1.06 33,107 134,210 21:39:31

Kills 129 Deaths 122 Wins 113 loses 95

Never use anything but spl on that mech.

Not saying your wrong OP, just saying dogfighting is not all doom and gloom.

Edited by Turist0AT, 03 November 2014 - 04:52 AM.


#3 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:49 AM

It is combat as in Warfare. in Warfare Overlapping fields of fire end the enemy quickly. I welcome my long range fire support allies with a great big "R" button. Never hurts to have 10-40 tons more weapons. If you think otherwise you are fighting wrong.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 November 2014 - 04:49 AM.


#4 Kiiyor

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:51 AM

View PostQuxudica, on 03 November 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Effectively Dead, something I don't see often mentioned but as an old pocket rocket jokey its something I became very familiar with. Simply put you don't need to kill a mech to "kill" a mech, a light is pretty much out of the fight (barring totally incompetent enemies) the moment that leg hits yellowish orange,


This is my main gripe at the moment, but IMHO the whole 'effectively dead' thing takes root the instant you lose armour in a location from one big hit. It forces you to be defensive straight away, and drastically limits the contribution you can make to your team. It's not as big an issue to Assaults, and to a lesser extent heavies, but lights and mediums are extremely vulnerable to big hits.

I really think TTK needs to be increased slightly. I miss the days where you could trudge carefully out to the open and exchange fire with a mech to gather information, without fear of someone landing a hail mary on your chin for a one-two KO. At the moment, the instant you cease humping the nearest hill and ask someone to hold your beer, it's probably all over.

Maybe an armour increase of around 1/3? Or go the other way and increase internal structure by that amount to give crit hunting more of a role?

#5 Tarogato

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 04:57 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 November 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

It is combat as in Warfare. in Warfare Overlapping fields of fire end the enemy quickly. I welcome my long range fire support allies with a great big "R" button. Never hurts to have 10-40 tons more weapons. If you think otherwise you are fighting wrong.
Which is all well and good until we realise how much less fun this is. Only a year ago I remember light dogfights and dueling mediums being legitimately the most engaging and fun thing in this game. What happened to that, eh? Now it's all about mobbing into a single close formation and deathballing anything in your way - all the tactics and skills are gone for the most part. Maybe not gone, but shifted away to something less interesting at the least. I attribute to TTK - things just die too fast now. It's time to double that armour again? Maybe add x1.5 would be appropriate at this point?

Edit:

View PostKiiyor, on 03 November 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

everything said
Well look at that, we pretty much said the same exact thing at the same time.

Edited by Tarogato, 03 November 2014 - 04:59 AM.


#6 Lily from animove

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:01 AM

buy a stormcrow put radar derp on it and lern to play it, then most of your trouble is gone.


View PostTarogato, on 03 November 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Which is all well and good until we realise how much less fun this is. Only a year ago I remember light dogfights and dueling mediums being legitimately the most engaging and fun thing in this game. What happened to that, eh? Now it's all about mobbing into a single close formation and deathballing anything in your way - all the tactics and skills are gone for the most part. Maybe not gone, but shifted away to something less interesting at the least. I attribute to TTK - things just die too fast now. It's time to double that armour again? Maybe add x1.5 would be appropriate at this point?

Edit:Well look at that, we pretty much said the same exact thing at the same time.



more like half the armor, double the internal hp, this will cause components to be destroyed earlier in the game, makign shooting at gun arms gun more appealing and also lowering ttk by reducing firepower with more and more advanced and damaged mechs. Battle of attrition instead of CT and leg sniping..

Edited by Lily from animove, 03 November 2014 - 05:04 AM.


#7 Kiiyor

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:05 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 03 November 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

buy a stormcrow put radar derp on it and lern to play it, then most of your trouble is gone.


Ah, the majesty of the DoomCrow, resplendent in it's natural habitat of enemy corpses.

#8 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:08 AM

View PostTarogato, on 03 November 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Which is all well and good until we realise how much less fun this is. Only a year ago I remember light dogfights and dueling mediums being legitimately the most engaging and fun thing in this game. What happened to that, eh? Now it's all about mobbing into a single close formation and deathballing anything in your way - all the tactics and skills are gone for the most part. Maybe not gone, but shifted away to something less interesting at the least. I attribute to TTK - things just die too fast now. It's time to double that armour again? Maybe add x1.5 would be appropriate at this point?

Edit:Well look at that, we pretty much said the same exact thing at the same time.

Strange I love it when a team comes together and fights cohesively.
I have no desire to have My Atlas's armor doubled again sir. It would be ridiculous.

#9 PitchBlackYeti

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:10 AM

View PostQuxudica, on 03 November 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

On the rare occasions you don't get showered with aim-assisted death from above, you find yourself in massively overcrowded maps, where everything is just a fur ball. Pretty much all of the old maps are no longer big enough for the player size we now have, meaning the chance for a light or fast medium running into their opposite number(s) and duking it out in a battle of the scouts is long since gone.


No more Alpine please. I actually enjoy small maps, with quick brutal fights. HPG has to be my favourite because of lots of LRM cover (it's not actually small but the actual fighting zone is). Be it a big map or small, players will always clump together (even in conquest although to a lesser extent) making dogfighting very hard to impossible. But I agree that mediums are screwed for being too big in size and having too little tonnage to pack serious punch other than SRM boating. Let's wait if the quirks change something especially for the brawler meds.

#10 zagibu

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:18 AM

The main reason the art is a bit lost these days is the tracking improvement of LRMs. Light mechs used to be more or less save from LRMs, because they tended to miss them when they were going full speed. This meant LRM mechs didn't really shoot at lights, because it was mostly a waste of ammo.

Since the tracking improvement, no amount of evasion manoeuvers helps, my Jenner is as helpless to LRMs as any other mech (besides being able to move to cover faster, of course). This was very detrimental for gameplay, in my opinion, because lights have to cower behind cover, now, too, and can't fulfill their scouting/skirmishing role.

#11 EvilCow

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:26 AM

Fighting face to face is dead, both opponents would be overwhelmed by indirect LRM fire. LRM also remove your fighting chance when you are the only one left in a bad game, often you die by observation...

LRM are not overpowered are overannoying, indirect fire must go.

#12 mike29tw

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:28 AM

View PostKiiyor, on 03 November 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:


This is my main gripe at the moment, but IMHO the whole 'effectively dead' thing takes root the instant you lose armour in a location from one big hit. It forces you to be defensive straight away, and drastically limits the contribution you can make to your team. It's not as big an issue to Assaults, and to a lesser extent heavies, but lights and mediums are extremely vulnerable to big hits.

I really think TTK needs to be increased slightly. I miss the days where you could trudge carefully out to the open and exchange fire with a mech to gather information, without fear of someone landing a hail mary on your chin for a one-two KO. At the moment, the instant you cease humping the nearest hill and ask someone to hold your beer, it's probably all over.

Maybe an armour increase of around 1/3? Or go the other way and increase internal structure by that amount to give crit hunting more of a role?


QFT.

Also, 12 vs. 12 doesn't help either. Light mechs lost its edge when we have 12 enemy mechs clogged up in such small maps. Every where you go you're destined to hit a wall consists of a hundred tons of firepower. Player density in small maps killed every last bit of agility advantage the light mechs had.

#13 StraferX

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 05:48 AM

I support the OP ideas and do also think the game has changed to much from good ole fighting to LRM rain of death. I am a dogfighter as I build mediums just for that purpose. As a medium pilot I build fast, I will single you out and lure you into chasing me around that corner where i will commence to kick your buttox only feet away from your team mates. Then I will run off to find another juking and dodging LRM rain. Yeah sometimes it works fantastic other times It is a total fail but it is fun and the way I like to roll. This is why I believe LRM's need a change, with direct line of sight they should fire hard hitting tracking nail drivers, if its a tag/indirect targeting then you should fire a larger group of area covering lighter hitting blanket bombs.

#14 Kiiyor

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:03 AM

Mayhap things will change enough after the quirk pass that a survivability pass needs to be made.

I don't envy whoever changes those numbers though, because changing armour changes the viability and dynamic of pretty much every weapon.

I still want it changed though :)

#15 SgtExo

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:14 AM

You guys all sound like clanners lammenting that the IS pilots don't respect 1 on 1 fights and focus fire on a single target.

What I think you guys want is a Solaris style queue where it pits you 1 on 1 or 2 on 2. That way, you could see who is the better mechwarrior instead of who has the most cohesive team.

I would love to see this as it would let us vary the playstyles, and allow other mech builds to be usefull in some ways.

#16 CyclonerM

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:17 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 November 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

It is combat as in Warfare. in Warfare Overlapping fields of fire end the enemy quickly. I welcome my long range fire support allies with a great big "R" button. Never hurts to have 10-40 tons more weapons. If you think otherwise you are fighting wrong.

True. On the other hand, if pugs collaborated when two big Clan teams meet and agreed to fight 1vs1 we would all have some dueing fun and the test skill we are all seeking, quiaff? ;)

#17 Livewyr

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:21 AM

This reads like a parody of the lost art of sword-fighting with the advent of the personal firearm.

Well.. yes, Virginia, when one brings a knife to a gun fight, they are not going to do so well.

(And just think!: Now with IS mech quirks, you have longer range, lower heat, alpha strikes...that are FLD! Bwahahahahahaahaaa.)


[EDIT: For post constructiveness- bring a couple short range weapons with your long range weapons for those occasions you *do* end up in a knife fight. Or, you can make sure you have friends covering you.]

Edited by Livewyr, 03 November 2014 - 06:22 AM.


#18 PitchBlackYeti

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:36 AM

View PostStraferX, on 03 November 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

This is why I believe LRM's need a change, with direct line of sight they should fire hard hitting tracking nail drivers, if its a tag/indirect targeting then you should fire a larger group of area covering lighter hitting blanket bombs.


A fair suggestion, increase LRM spread by 200-300% when in indirect fire mode. But I still think that any LRM change/nerf/buff should be accompanied by proper ECM redesign. Without changes to the ECM mechanic any change to LRMs doesn't make them any less situational.

#19 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 06:36 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 03 November 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

True. On the other hand, if pugs collaborated when two big Clan teams meet and agreed to fight 1vs1 we would all have some dueing fun and the test skill we are all seeking, quiaff? ;)

Aff

#20 Mercules

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Posted 03 November 2014 - 07:09 AM

View PostTarogato, on 03 November 2014 - 04:57 AM, said:

Which is all well and good until we realise how much less fun this is. Only a year ago I remember light dogfights and dueling mediums being legitimately the most engaging and fun thing in this game. What happened to that, eh? Now it's all about mobbing into a single close formation and deathballing anything in your way - all the tactics and skills are gone for the most part. Maybe not gone, but shifted away to something less interesting at the least. I attribute to TTK - things just die too fast now. It's time to double that armour again? Maybe add x1.5 would be appropriate at this point?


Weird... I get into dust-ups with other Lights all the time. Then again I try to fence with them near my support and not theirs or if I am unable to do that I try to intercept the guys taking the log way around so we are both away from any immediate support.





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