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Fixing The Role Of Lights? (Hello Those In Power)


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#21 Hagoromo Gitsune

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 10:54 AM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 12 September 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Let's spitball here how we would balance lights:
1. Disable Airstrikes and Artillery consumables for all mechs except for Lights.
2. Disable target sharing except for mechs equipped with Tag, Narc, or mechs that are Lights.
3. Disable friendly collision damage for all light mechs.
4. Disable all collision damage for the Locust. (I keep pushing for this...)
5. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being targeted for longer than 2 seconds.
6. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being damaged by multiple enemy sources within 2 seconds.

I'm sure there are better ideas out there, let's hear em'!

actually we need...

1. Enable full collision damage.
2. Disable target sharing for all mechs not equipped with BAP.
3. Roll back JJ nerf.
4. Disable friendly collision damage.

Edited by Hagoromo Gitsune, 12 September 2014 - 11:03 AM.


#22 Khobai

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 10:59 AM

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Disable friendly collision damage.


That makes no sense. Friendly fire is part of the game.

#23 Hagoromo Gitsune

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:03 AM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:


That makes no sense. Friendly fire is part of the game.

Ok, striken off the list :lol:

#24 terrycloth

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:14 AM

Having lighter mechs be harder to spot with radar was a reasonable suggestion, and would help non-ECM lights scout.

Although I will say having ECM does not improve your survivability against anything but LRMs. It makes you a primary target even if larger mechs are nearby.

#25 Adiuvo

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:27 AM

Lights don't need some PvE crap to be viable. They already have a unique role - picking out mechs that are out of position. They aren't really that effective at this, but the basics are there.

Addressing why they aren't too effective, it's because lights are unable to really maneuver around things. The whole point of lights is to maneuver around enemy bigs, but literally every assault but a Daishi or a dumb Atlas pilot can keep pace with a light. It's not about top speed, it's about turn rate. A flat bonus of around 15-20% would basically be all that is needed for lights to be at pace with heavies/assaults.

#26 Khobai

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM

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A flat bonus of around 15-20% would basically be all that is needed for lights to be at pace with heavies/assaults.


what about just removing anchor turn and speed tweak from the heavy/assault skill trees?

give them shake reduction and damage reduction instead. It also solves the whole problem of the timber wolf maneuvering as well as most mediums. A lot of the victor nerfs could be undone then too.

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM.


#27 stjobe

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:


what about just removing anchor turn and speed tweak from the heavy/assault skill trees?

If we're wishing, how about a complete remake of the skill trees - along with a severe reduction in bonuses you get from them?

Edit: Looking back at Dev Blog 4: Role Warfare, the bonuses were on the order of single percentage points, not the current 10-25%

Edited by stjobe, 12 September 2014 - 11:46 AM.


#28 Aaren Kai

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM

What is this ECM you speak of?

- Jenner pilot for life


The problem is that DMG is king in this game. Everything is based on that. Support roles, cost/repair, battle value... All asked for and talked about. So, not trying to nay say here or shut a thread down but a lot of people have talked to this one and nothing gets done.

I too would love to have a role more than harasser, but till then I enjoy the extra challenge.

#29 Adiuvo

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:42 AM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:


what about just removing anchor turn and speed tweak from the heavy/assault skill trees?

give them shake reduction and damage reduction instead. It also solves the whole problem of the timber wolf performing as well as most mediums.

That would basically accomplish the same thing, yeah. It's preferable too.

I don't see them editing the tree any time soon though =/ PGI already said that they would review quirks so at this point I'm guessing a change there will be most likely.

#30 Khobai

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:44 AM

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If we're wishing, how about a complete remake of the skill trees - along with a severe reduction in bonuses you get from them?


Yeah thats something that needs to happen eventually. But I dont see it happening any time soon unfortunately.

But a very easy stopgap solution would simply be to swap out anchor turn and speed tweak on the heavy/assault skill trees for two new skills.

#31 Dhatman

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:55 AM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:


what about just removing anchor turn and speed tweak from the heavy/assault skill trees?

give them shake reduction and damage reduction instead. It also solves the whole problem of the timber wolf maneuvering as well as most mediums. A lot of the victor nerfs could be undone then too.


and:
-UAV(for free) and air strikes only for lights/med
-more rewards for tag/narc/spotting

#32 Khobai

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 11:57 AM

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and:
-UAV(for free) and air strikes only for lights/med
-more rewards for tag/narc/spotting


I also wouldnt be opposed to cutting sensor range in half on heavies and assault to force them to rely on lights and mediums for spotting.

#33 stjobe

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:


I also wouldnt be opposed to cutting sensor range in half on heavies and assault to force them to rely on lights and mediums for spotting.

An idea that's been floating around since forever is to have mediums as the "normal" value for all kinds of values. For sensor range, it could be (something along the lines of):

Lights: 120%
Mediums: 100%
Heavies: 80%
Assaults: 60%

Edited by stjobe, 12 September 2014 - 12:06 PM.


#34 Prezimonto

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:33 PM

View PostCarrie Harder, on 12 September 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

As for "light weapons," Battletech doesn't make distinctions like that. There are light mechs armed with Gauss and ERPPCs stock, and there are even some derpy assaults armed with a handful of Small Lasers. Maybe you could argue for some kind of sized hardpoint system to distinguish the role of lights who are meant to carry the larger guns, but at the end of the day there should always be at least some lights capable of doing so.


That's the whole point behind mechs like the Panther and Hollander... just like the Hunchback... frames built to house the biggest of weapons in smallest possible package and almost nothing else. With totally open customization and without a greater setting/economy reigning in builds these mechs generally have no good reason to exist because they often have other issues (low hard points, smaller engine caps, ect...) to help balance the BFG they carry.

#35 Prezimonto

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Posted 12 September 2014 - 12:56 PM

View PostKhobai, on 12 September 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

what about just removing anchor turn and speed tweak from the heavy/assault skill trees? give them shake reduction and damage reduction instead. It also solves the whole problem of the timber wolf maneuvering as well as most mediums. A lot of the victor nerfs could be undone then too.


I think they should completely redo the skill trees for mechs and instead of basic/elite/master make them more about the individual mechs.

They'd be skills devoted to Class which you'd unlock once for each class... small boosts designed to help mechs of that size. Light mechs, relying on speed and maneuverability, get speed tweak and twist/torso speeds unlocks here, maybe jump jet boost benefits... so their early skills are more about movement

medium mechs get a smattering of speed and maneuverability mixed with utility... their starting tree might actually a bit larger and look more like the current basic tree

heavy mechs, which are mostly large weapons platforms get the cooldown buffs (or we can do away with them entirely) or perhaps early access to weapons modules, arm movement, convergence (if it did anything), ect... mostly about dealing damage faster/more efficiently

Assault mechs get a mix of damage dealing and defensive benefits, things like small damage reduction to torso hits might be appropriate.

At the second Tier we get sets of skills that are specific to the mech chassis... so every chassis will have a set of skills you unlock once. These skills are things that chassis is supposed to excel at, and often they'll be skills that differentiate the chassis from the general Class skills... or maybe even double up or triple up on those skills.

Example: the Dragon is SUPPOSED to be a really maneuverable harasser, so it's chassis skills focus on things like speed tweak and agility. The Jager though is much more about dishing damage so it's chassis skills might double up on the heavy mech trees earlier abilities and give it even better cooldowns for ballistic weapons and access a skill that lowers the chance for ammo to explode by 5% (assuming ammo had a REAL change to explode).

Tier 3 is about variant specific skills... these should complement the mechs quirk tree and help define a specific role for each variant. Special abilities could be placed here...

Maybe the Spider 5V is the dedicated scout of the bunch so it might get a skill unlock that gives it a free module slot that always filled with a FREE UAV at the begining of each game... it can still pack on a second one for cash if it wants, but it's always got the one to use.

Maybe the Spider 5D, as the most highly mobile ECM unit is intended to play more solo... it's ECM team bubble gets shortened but the time to lock gets a few seconds added.

Maybe the Atlas 5K get's added damage reduction to the side torsos, while the Atlas DDC gets a short range increase to the ECM field.

Basically play up the stand out feature or role of each variant in the third set.

#36 That Dawg

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:11 AM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 12 September 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Let's spitball here how we would balance lights:
1. Disable Airstrikes and Artillery consumables for all mechs except for Lights.
2. Disable target sharing except for mechs equipped with Tag, Narc, or mechs that are Lights.
.

5. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being targeted for longer than 2 seconds.
6. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being damaged by multiple enemy sources within 2 seconds.




Man......I'd hate all those ideas.......except...they're viable.
I'd add, pay XP and creds for total time sitting on a flag, changing the cap to friendly.
that is the single biggest role of high speed lights, and the most dangerous, and ultimately they can win that map and walk away with next to nothing for the effort, effectively killing conquests importance





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