1306 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 12 September 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Too true, and that makes me a sad panda.

I wonder what it is about game forums that seem to bring out the worst in people....

Passion.

[Heffay]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Passion.

Oh man... Star Citizen is soooooo fooked.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Heffay, on 12 September 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

You're absolutely right. You'll keep looking for a flaw until you find one...

All it takes is a glance. This community has been flawed for ages. Now that the devs desire to work with it, I'll gladly point out those flawed individuals whom would only taint the process further.

[Agelmar]

Bhael Fire, on 12 September 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Having an elected council makes it technically a republic. Basically strips it down to an elitist community where only a few select ideas get voted on instead of the full spectrum.

A true democracy would be allowing each player to make suggestions and have it voted on. Once you introduce a political structure you introduce political games...and with it a blanket system where only a prominent few get their ideas heard.

There's nothing wrong with our current system of allowing each player start a poll for their ideas and having the entire community vote on it. That is true democracy.

Except the level of noise prohibits anything from being accomplished. A council works in gaming. I've been on one before. It serves as a filter and a funnel and when the members truly care about game mechanics and balance positive things can happen.

[Heffay]

lockwoodx, on 12 September 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

All it takes is a glance. This community has been flawed for ages. Now that the devs desire to work with it, I'll gladly point out those flawed individuals whom would only taint the process further.

Whooooosh....

[Metus regem]

Heffay, on 12 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Oh man... Star Citizen is soooooo fooked.

soooo boned it's not even funny!

[Hoax415]

So far I've seen the following names mentioned that are absolutely in no way fit to be on any council:
- homeless bill
- egomane
- bishop steiner
- stjobe
- mischiefSC
- heffay
- mudhutwarrior

No offense to the rest of you for being on a list with mudhutwarrior and heffay.

I don't mean that as a personal attack or that those people are bad apples or bad posters. Hopefully they would all contribute along the way to the proposals themselves. Just they aren't exactly impartial judge material.

Many of those people are forum warriors who like to win forum battles far too much or are the types who once they have staked their position don't really care what anyone else has to say. That's my feeling based on my interactions or reading their posts.

You want flexible people who can look at proposals and critique them not just declare them good or bad. You also want people who aren't begging to get some of this power and notoriety.

konivig should be asked if he thinks he would be better as a council member or someone doing the hard work of coming up with the early proposal draft(s) that the council would be looking over, refining and eventually presenting to the community at large / PGI.

TheMagician and DocBach are both level headed listeners who are suited to what will be a thankless series of compromises and edits. Of the people I'm familiar with they are the two best choices I'm seeing mentioned.

Sandpit and/or Vassago might be good. Both represent the more level headed and well reasoned side of the "PGI has gotten a ton of this wrong" position. And you know what, PGI has. Or we wouldn't even be having this ridiculous discussion. This "make a council" proposal is only happening because PGI has failed over and over to keep their word, has alienated countless players and has made some pretty large design errors along the way.

But in reality the simplest way to figure this out is to split the community up a little and get a representative from those groups.

Example:
- 1 person /r/mwo picks
- 1 people mwomercs forums pick aka the popularity contest
- 1 person /r/hpg picks
- 1 person the goons and/or /vg/ pick (lets be real, those voices of dissent might have made for a better game if they were listened to).
- 2 people picked by the competitive community, I don't know if that means RHOD or something else these days as I'm not a part of it.

That's the simplest and fastest way to do this. It splits the onus of getting the right people up over lots of sub sections of the community and has the best chance of not completely failing.

Edited by Hoax415, 12 September 2014 - 02:30 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Heffay, on 12 September 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Here are another set of restrictions that we should apply to potential members of the Player Council, in order to ensure we only have the highest quality people participating.

1) Nobody under 25. They already have ninja assassin gaming twitch skills. Let them learn some patience before participating in a leadership position.
2) Never been banned. If you can't express dissatisfaction like an adult, see rule 1.
3) College graduate. Prove that you have enough critical thinking skills and dedication to get through a higher education program. Liberal Arts degrees will be taken on a case by case basis.
4) Married at least 5 years with no divorces. If you can't handle a spouse, you will never be able to handle the MWO player base.

That's all I have for now. Will add more if I think of any other good restrictions.

You realize many industry leaders and visionaries never went to or finished college right? Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, to name a few?

And honestly, Marriage is a ridiculous criteria.

[Heffay]

Metus regem, on 12 September 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

soooo boned it's not even funny!

And to think I just put another $35 into the game. Oh well! Haters gonna be haters!

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Heffay, on 12 September 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Whooooosh....

That's all you've got? Wooosh? I read your reply like a book and countered appropriately. "Wooosh" is a cop-op. The cronyism is strong with this one.

[Heffay]

Hoax415, on 12 September 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Sandpit and/or Vassago might be good.

I should put together a "best of" set of posts that show they are anything but levelheaded.

[Bishop Steiner]

Heffay, on 12 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Oh man... Star Citizen is soooooo fooked.

Oh yeah. A lot of what we see here, is and will continue to fester there too, the further the schedule slips, the more grand ideas don't work out. And eventually, all the glad handing and baby kissing "communication" won't be enough. Because basically, the same people, eventually turn on ever Dev team, because in the end, they always feel they know more than the Devs.

[Heffay]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

You realize many industry leaders and visionaries never went to or finished college right? Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, to name a few?

And honestly, Marriage is a ridiculous criteria.

Gotta draw the line somewhere. You may miss the tuna in **** ocean, but at least you're not digging through an ocean of **** first.

Edited by Heffay, 12 September 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

You realize many industry leaders and visionaries never went to or finished college right? Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, to name a few?

And honestly, Marriage is a ridiculous criteria.

Thanks for posting this so I didnt have to.

Bout the only restriction that really makes sense is an age restriction. I say no one under 35

[Shibas]

Yeah, #saveMWO had ~100 people representing ~5000 people talking about what needed to be done for this game. We were considered an island, so good luck with your 5 man council representing...themselves?

[Hoax415]

There is no point to this exercise if you only include people who have shown no history of being willing to stand up for the players regardless of the brow beating of Russ Paul or Niko.

Both of those people have done more for the discourse on this board than you could do in 100 lifetimes Heffay.

[Helmer]

The topic is "Electing A Player "council" Of Sorts".

Let's please refrain from deviating from the original intent of the thread as much as possible.


Thanks!

[Bishop Steiner]

Hoax415, on 12 September 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

So far I've seen the following names mentioned that are absolutely in no way fit to be on any council:
- homeless bill
- egomane
- bishop steiner
- stjobe
- mischiefSC
- heffay
- mudhutwarrior

No offense to the rest of you for being on a list with mudhutwarrior and heffay.

I don't mean that as a personal attack or that those people are bad apples or bad posters. Hopefully they would all contribute along the way to the proposals themselves. Just they aren't exactly impartial judge material.

Many of those people are forum warriors who like to win forum battles far too much or are the types who once they have staked their position don't really care what anyone else has to say. That's my feeling based on my interactions or reading their posts.

You want flexible people who can look at proposals and critique them not just declare them good or bad. You also want people who aren't begging to get some of this power and notoriety.

konivig should be asked if he thinks he would be better as a council member or someone doing the hard work of coming up with the early proposal draft(s) that the council would be looking over, refining and eventually presenting to the community at large / PGI.

TheMagician and DocBach are both level headed listeners who are suited to what will be a thankless series of compromises and edits. Of the people I'm familiar with they are the two best choices I'm seeing mentioned.

Sandpit and/or Vassago might be good. Both represent the more level headed and well reasoned side of the "PGI has gotten a ton of this wrong" position. And you know what, PGI has. Or we wouldn't even be having this ridiculous discussion. This "make a council" proposal is only happening because PGI has failed over and over to keep their word, has alienated countless players and has made some pretty large design errors along the way.

But in reality the simplest way to figure this out is to split the community up a little and get a representative from those groups.

Example:
- 1 person /r/mwo picks
- 1 people mwomercs forums pick aka the popularity contest
- 1 person /r/hpg picks
- 1 person the goons and/or /vg/ pick (lets be real, those voices of dissent might have made for a better game if they were listened to).
- 2 people picked by the competitive community, I don't know if that means RHOD or something else these days as I'm not a part of it.

That's the simplest and fastest way to do this. It splits the onus of getting the right people up over lots of sub sections of the community and has the best chance of not completely failing.

I actually largely agree with your post. But if you think Roland or Sandpit (And from long personal interaction Sand is anything BUT level headed. sorry) are any more flexible, you are sadly incorrect. And Vassago? Not even gonna go there.

But I do pretty well agree with all the ones you don't think should be on it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 September 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

This thread (how I feared) is turning into a circle jerk of friends supporting each other for nominations. It didn't take much... just pointing out a few of the rotten apples and watching them reply. That's how they would treat this game vs those that disagreed with them too. The whole process should be scrapped imo, but at least it's better than NGNG running the show like they have.

[Carrioncrows]

lockwoodx, on 12 September 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

I'm not asking for a nomination, nor do I desire it. The only time you hear from me is if there's a flaw to be exposed. I'm very good at that, which is why regular posters find me a thorn in their side.

There are lots of issues Bishop and I don't see eye to eye on. LRMS, SHS, endo.ect ect. But I have changed his mind on a few issues or at the very least broadened his perspective. He doesn't doggedly stick to a bad idea because it's his, nor cater to a single aspect of play. Which is what we need.

I see lots of other respectable people as a possible representative, some of those people I feel are merely concerned with their own narrow focus of what they play MWO for. For instance pugs at the cost of competitive or visa versa.

The reasons I support Bishop is because:

1. He cares. This isn't a game to him. it's a legacy.
2. He backs up his ideas with common sense, proof and/or logic.
3. I trust his bad idea's over anyone else's good ideas because of the the above 2 reasons.