56 replies to this topic

[Syrkres]

Proposal for CW Salvage.

Background:

• It has been stated that one cannot use cross faction mechs in CW.
  
• A Season of CW is proposed to last 3 months.

Lore:

• Units were able to salvage enemy mechs and eventually start using them.
  
• The clan invasion lasted from 3049 - 3052 (ooh look 3 years)

Main idea:
The main idea is that after a player kills a chassis of mech they have salved enough that mech to start fielding it. This would allow players to use cross faction mechs.

Details:
Now since the system already keeps track of our kills, it should be easy enough to track what we killed. This can most easily be done by adding a join table (of 3 columns [PLAYER_ID, MECH_TYPE_ID, KILL_COUNT] ) of players to mechs which tracks players kills. Then you can either add a 1x12 array to the current player structure for each battle to track what they kill, or even simpler log it during the battle, and then every few hours (or nightly) parse the log file to get the latest count.

Now you wouldn't want a player to acquire access to cross faction mechs too quick, my initial thoughts is that it should take 2 months (2 years game time) for the average player to acquire enough kills to salvage a mech chassis. I would put the count somewhere around 500 or so to acquire a chassis.

If you take the drop of 3/3/3/3, the most someone would likely be able to kill of a single chassis would be 3.And at 500 kills over 60 days would make it 8 kills of a specific chassis per day.

Now from a PGI(business) point of view you could have premium time give 2 kills per actual kill, this would reward paying customers more. This would be similar to buying a Mech package in that you get mechs earlier. Thus someone with Premium time would more likely only take a month to acquire a cross faction mech.

You would only have to track the kills of mechs people own, which should make your data storage a bit easier.

Thoughts...

[Appogee]

I always thought that, as a merc corp, my unit would be able to use salvaged Mechs. So I was surprised PGI won't allow that.

I should have factored in that PGI generally takes the easiest available option.

[Noesis]

It would of course be nice to take this suggestion further with components and tech as part of the rewards associated with match results or outcomes. This reflected with the amount of actual remaining parts etc. Be it IS or Clan tech. This however would entail a revamp of mechanics that additionally would need to be balanced within whatever economical model with loyalty PGI would want to introduce.

The suggestion above then at least a more simplified model of expanding drop outcomes as rewards from a system that is in the most already in place as a monitoring tool.

[StalaggtIKE]

Appogee, on 12 September 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

I always thought that, as a merc corp, my unit would be able to use salvaged Mechs. So I was surprised PGI won't allow that.

[M X Striker]

Also, as a Merc company, we should eventually be able to run a mixed batch of Mechs anyway no? They should really account for this. Please take note PGI!

[Hellcat420]

if you wanted to use captured mechs, you would have to capture planets with factories for those mechs. battlemechs for the most part do not use interchangeable parts. there are a few exceptions, but not many. you cant operate mechs if you cant repair them.

[Syrkres]

Hellcat420, on 12 September 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

if you wanted to use captured mechs, you would have to capture planets with factories for those mechs. battlemechs for the most part do not use interchangeable parts. there are a few exceptions, but not many. you cant operate mechs if you cant repair them.

But that is why I am suggesting "X" number of kills, because then you finally get enough parts to stage that mech chassis.

[Hellcat420]

Syrkres, on 12 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

[size=3]But that is why I am suggesting "X" number of kills, because then you finally get enough parts to stage that mech chassis.

or you could just have to capture a planet with teh mech factory on it, since it would give a reason for community warfare, and actually fit better than just "i killed 10 shadowhawks, i can use my salvaged one now!".

[Thumper3]

Hellcat420, on 12 September 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

battlemechs for the most part do not use interchangeable parts. there are a few exceptions, but not many.

They don't? So the AC20 on the Atlas is different than the AC20 on the Hunchback? Different mounting lugs, electrical harness connections, the lot? Same with engines, an XL320 is specific for each mech?

They used specifically different hand actuators, arm actuators, ect on each mech? Not only literally desiging OUT battlefield repair, but creating a logistics and supply nightmare that would make UPS catatonic?

Obviously, Clan and IS technology and parts would be vastly different but again as I cover below, salvage and a factory are totally different levels.

Even today in 2014 car makers use thousands of the same parts to assemble dozens of different models and styles of cars and trucks, it's basic production. Do the manufacturers of 3050 hate Henry Ford for some reason? LOL

A factory should give you a near unlimited number of units (limited only by unit per time period, not in total), whereas Salvage would limit the total available based on what you killed.

Therefore, killing X number of Shadowhawks means you can build ONE, killing X(2) means you can build TWO, taking a planet with a Shadowhawk factory on it lets you make 5 per day and have as many as you can make.

[CocoaJin]

If they did allow for cross faction salvage to build a mech, it should require a significant amount of salvage. I suggest the build require very specific parts to be obtained, resulting in lots of duplicates and other chassis parts to thrift through, sale off and store before you could possibly construct an opposing faction chassis....but it shouldn't end there.

Standard repair shouldn't only apply. Use of the mech and taking damage should potentially destroy "required" parts that must be replaced through the same salvage process. This means, your contra-band chassis could find itself laid up in the hangar awaiting the availability of hard to come by parts.

I wonder if equipped weapons for the contra-band mech should be salvage only, but provide the ability to mount own faction weapons in thier place, but with reduce effectiveness and/or efficiency as a trade off.

What's important to me is that any cross-faction salvage be excruciatingly difficult...or we go in the face of exactly what we are trying to have CW be...faction warfare.

Edited by CocoaJin, 12 September 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[Syrkres]

CocoaJin, on 12 September 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

If they did allow for cross faction salvage to build a mech, it should require a significant amount of salvage. I suggest the build require very specific parts to be obtained, resulting in lots of duplicates and other chassis parts to thrift through, sale off and store before you could possibly construct an opposing faction chassis....but it shouldn't end there.

Standard repair shouldn't only apply. Use of the mech and taking damage should potentially destroy "required" parts that must be replaced through the same salvage process. This means, your contra-band chassis could find itself laid up in the hangar awaiting the availability of hard to come by parts.

I wonder if equipped weapons for the contra-band mech should be salvage only, but provide the ability to mount own faction weapons in thier place, but with reduce effectiveness and/or efficiency as a trade off.

What's important to me is that any cross-faction salvage be excruciatingly difficult...or we go in face of exactly what we are trying to have CW be...faction warfare.

Coco, that would be great idea, but I was trying to suggest the easiest way to implement for PGI.

Issues I see with it:

• Right now they don't track individual salvage parts and would probably take a bit of effort.

Where as they do:

• Track our kills, thus would only need to add on what we kill. Should be fairly simple.

[Hellcat420]

Thumper3, on 12 September 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

They don't? So the AC20 on the Atlas is different than the AC20 on the Hunchback? Different mounting lugs, electrical harness connections, the lot? Same with engines, an XL320 is specific for each mech?

They used specifiuators, ect on eaccally different hand actuators, arm acth mech? Not only literally desiging OUT battlefield repair, but creating a logistics and supply nightmare that would make UPS catatonic?

Obviously, Clan and IS technology and parts would be vastly different but again as I cover below, salvage and a factory are totally different levels.

Even today in 2014 car makers use thousands of the same parts to assemble dozens of different models and styles of cars and trucks, it's basic production. Do the manufacturers of 3050 hate Henry Ford for some reason? LOL

A factory should give you a near unlimited number of units (limited only by unit per time period, not in total), whereas Salvage would limit the total available based on what you killed.

Therefore, killing X number of Shadowhawks means you can build ONE, killing X(2) means you can build TWO, taking a planet with a Shadowhawk factory on it lets you make 5 per day and have as many as you can make.

have you looked at any of the tro's or sarna and seen how many versions of the ac20 there are? there are many versions of every weapon in the battletech universe. every manufacturer makes its own version. if this game was true to battletech, no is mech would be changing any weapons period. field refit kits do not exist yet. the innersphere was one giant logistical nightmare before the clans invaded. hell a lot of the battles in the innersphere were over spare parts for mechs. hell, at this point in the timeline, most innersphere mechs were centuries old and basically duct taped together, and the only reason any new mechs were even able to be created is because the factories were automated. the innersphere(other than comstar) had lost the ability to create most of the battlemech technology. hell the clan invasion was the equivelent of the united states army from 20 years in the future from now going back in time and fighting the russian army in ww2. ffs, microwave ovens are lost tech in the innersphere. technology in the innersphere at this point had been quickly going backwards for 250 years.

Edited by Hellcat420, 12 September 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Tezcatli]

If they were to allow you to salvage whole mechs from the battlefield. Then you should lose whole mechs on the battlefield.

[Dymlos2003]

What they could do is make it so you have a chance to v salvage a part of the mech your team has killed. For example a commandos right arm. Now your team would have to kill commandos to get all the parts but that's just adds to the satisfaction once you complete the entire mech.
Once you have all the parts you can now "repair" the mech at a reduced price. Therefore getting a mech Chester or selling it for cbills.
I'm on my phone So I can't get in-depth with this idea but I thought it would work with the MWO model.

Edited by Dymlos2003, 12 September 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Impyrium]

Thumper3, on 12 September 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

They don't? So the AC20 on the Atlas is different than the AC20 on the Hunchback? Different mounting lugs, electrical harness connections, the lot? Same with engines, an XL320 is specific for each mech?

Actually, yes. Lore wise each weapon system is custom built for a 'Mech chassis. Obviously liberties had to be made since this is a game.

I like the idea of salvage, but not a massive fan of this idea. Cross-faction 'Mechs wouldn't work business-wise, either- they're looking entire 'Mech sales to premium time? That's a severe loss of revenue, so PGI wouldn't be interested.

What I want to see is making it so you need to salvage weapons. Your CW should have a separate (Unit?) inventory with extra weapons, gear etc. Weapons and armour damaged in battles should actually have to be paid for post-battle to fix, and destroyed weapons should need to be replaced. Obviously new ones could be bought, but salvaging could be cheaper. I think 'Mechs are a step to far, really, since you have to remember this is a F2P game.

I don't expect any of this, though. They said that salvage isn't an option for the next CW phase, and when salvage was brought up they didn't seem to understand what we meant- they assumed we meant just having the ability to mount Clan/IS weapons on each other as we would any other weapon (Not as salvage, just in the normal Mechlab). Think outside the box, PGI!

Edited by AUSwarrior24, 12 September 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

IF you want to get Clan Tech on an IS Mech, will you be willing to lose that piece of tech if it gets destroyed? Free replacements of IS equipment is one thing, but having infinite CERPPC for Me as a Lawman makes no sense.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Hellcat420, on 12 September 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

if you wanted to use captured mechs, you would have to capture planets with factories for those mechs. battlemechs for the most part do not use interchangeable parts. there are a few exceptions, but not many. you cant operate mechs if you cant repair them.

Yes and no.

Myomer muscle, and armor plating is, generally, interchangeable. As well as certern engines. Ie the Vallar 300 powerplant that power's an Atlas also powers a Marauder. [many books made note of mercs looking to down either of these machines for a hopefully salvageable Vallar 300 power plant] Many mechs also had retrofitted equipment to make it work "close enough." and often times those were taken from other mechs.

[Tezcatli]

I don't know about salvaging whole mechs. But salvaging components seem like it would be another fun layer to the game. But Clan tech would be something that if it gets destroyed in combat, it's destroyed completely, and there's no replacing it after.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think a system like this would be great. I think one should accumulate salvage points when fighting clans, and when you get enough you can spend them to unlock a Mech/chassis. They could be slowly gained so you don't have IS units using clan mechs all the time, but at least making it possible to use a couple of them in CW would be nice.

[Appogee]

Wouldn't it be awesome if they tracked WHICH parts you salvaged from each battle, so that you could eventually 'assemble' an entire chassis from salvaged parts.

This could also be factored into the CBill economy. You'd need to pay techs to put the parts together, perhaps your company to warehouse the parts.

Edited by Appogee, 13 September 2014 - 12:30 AM.