34 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I've been meaning to post this thread for a while now, but considering how PGI has yet to say they will actively address this particular bug, this will be an ongoing issue for the foreseeable future.

Let me discuss one particular ability of ECM, since it contributes to the problem at hand. The ability to "hide Doritos" is an aspect of the cloak. This demands players to use their eyes and not their ability to hit "r" (if people actually use it properly). For the newbie, this is very difficult to comprehend, as there is no built-in tutorial to explain how ECM works.. (let alone how to target) so it becomes relatively difficult to explain in combat that there are enemy targets in that vicinity. The usual counter is to use something like TAG, to "give Doritos" where there aren't any. It will cut through the ECM cloak, but it often mitigated with the use of Radar Deprivation, which quickly removes said Dorito as soon as it is out of LOS.

Here's the real buggy issue... the "Doritos bug" that was long standing in at least Open Beta (it probably existed in Closed Beta) is rearing its ugly head... in a more sinister form... as you cannot see the green or blue Doritos over their heads. This becomes extraordinarily problematic if you understand what ECM does with the Doritos. While it should be obvious when spawning that a missing Doritos over you or your teammates head means that you shouldn't be shooting that early (it should take at least 30 seconds before you start combat generally), it becomes a very significant issue in mid combat.

Imagine that the Doritos is missing over your Dire Wolf teammate. If you spotted "a random Dire Wolf" in some location, without its Doritos... you have 2 choices...

1) Shoot it, because staring at a Dire Wolf is certain death.

2) Don't shoot it, and hope it isn't a meta-Dire Wolf that will end you once it stares at you.

How does one figure out if that target is friend or foe? I guess the "best solution" is the most impractical one... because it requires TAG, as mentioned before. The thing is, it might not stop your Dire Wolf teammate from shooting you because you might not have a Doritos over your head, according to them. That's what makes this bug extraordinarily frustrating.

The thing about that ECM cloak which makes it frustrating is that you are effectively denied the paperdoll readout. When used correctly, if your team is constructed with the same chassis, you can effectively rotate the player that is going to get exposed. Since you have no paperdoll readout, most players will do their "default" shooting. Even if you "recall" the health of a particular target (which many people are not capable of doing with all that action), a "new target" of the same chassis may have taken its place, thus rendering your "previous recollection" not as useful.

It's important to understand how that ECM cloak of "information denial" affects players. It is already a factor in solo play, just as much as group play AND significantly at the highest levels of play. It is one of the game changing factors when people play their mechs and roles correctly... and it's not as "simple" as killing the mech. Sometimes there's more than one ECM mech, and more importantly... this "simple, but rudimentary" form of information denial is more powerful than people are willing to admit to. Right now, it is lumped in with an actual serious bug that causes actual confusion among teammates that needs to be dealt with, in addition to addressing ECM as a whole.

[Votanin FleshRender]

I've been TKed twice in the last two weeks because of this....

[DocBach]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

The thing about that ECM cloak which makes it frustrating is that you are effectively denied the paperdoll readout. When used correctly, if your team is constructed with the same chassis, you can effectively rotate the player that is going to get exposed. Since you have no paperdoll readout, most players will do their "default" shooting. Even if you "recall" the health of a particular target (which many people are not capable of doing with all that action), a "new target" of the same chassis may have taken its place, thus rendering your "previous recollection" not as useful.

It's important to understand how that ECM cloak of "information denial" affects players. It is already a factor in solo play, just as much as group play AND significantly at the highest levels of play. It is one of the game changing factors when people play their mechs and roles correctly... and it's not as "simple" as killing the mech. Sometimes there's more than one ECM mech, and more importantly... this "simple, but rudimentary" form of information denial is more powerful than people are willing to admit to.

As always, well said -- the quoted parts especially.

[Livewyr]

I had an amusing one yesterday.. I was leading a charge up Mount Everest in Alpine.. and for some reason kept getting shot in the back. I turned around to see a nova chaining lasers into me like crazy...

It took me moving side to side, staring at him.. and ultimately running all the way back down and up into his face before he recognized that I was a friendly.

He did a lot of damage, but nothing catastrophic.

Edited by Livewyr, 13 September 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Riverboat Sam]

This has been driving me crazy lately too. Seems every match on the way from spawn to grouping up I keep taking random hits from behind. I turn around and there are nothing but friendlies behind me. Sheesh. They really do need to fix this.

In addition, I've found myself in brawl after brawl with no "dorrito", on the mech I'm looking at. I usually wait to see who he shoots at. Based on his target mech's dorrito I either return fire or not. It makes for a confusing match.

Edited by Enlil09, 13 September 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

ECM, information denial, Red Dorito bug, and new players.

• give better facilities for helping new players
  
• fix the bug
  
• keep information denial
  
• I like ECM as it is just fine.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

• give better facilities for helping new players

Considering PGI is putting all its effort into CW and not the NPE (which is still pretty bad), we can figure that out sometime in 2015-2016 at the earliest.

Quote

• fix the bug

Good luck with that. I have yet to see acknowledgement in addressing this bug ASAP, while it gains traction.

Quote

• keep information denial

• I like ECM as it is just fine.

I believe ECM is broken, and information denial is like "extra armor" for a mech in some ways. It's hard to figure out what to hit until you realize the smoke from the excessive damage to a certain location.

The thing is, Clans get a Targeting Comp (in addition to "better BAP") that accelerates their info gathering far better than the IS... who just get the lame "Command Console" that isn't worth the tonnage that it is billed for.

Information denial should actually be limited up to a certain range, instead of "every range" that isn't ECM cloak range until ECM is actively countered in some way shape or form. It's already got "Anti Target Info Gathering" powers, but putting far more ontop of that can be a bit too much.

[StalaggtIKE]

I did not experience this bug until ECM was introduced. Coincidence? I think not.

[Mystere]

Quote

give better facilities for helping new players

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Considering PGI is putting all its effort into CW and not the NPE (which is still pretty bad), we can figure that out sometime in 2015-2016 at the earliest.

Quote

fix the [Red Dorito] bug

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Good luck with that. I have yet to see acknowledgement in addressing this bug ASAP, while it gains traction.

Given that these two are regularly used as rationale for "fixing" ECM, I say deal with those first before touching ECM.

Or is there an ulterior motive for people not wanting to fix these? ...

[Wintersdark]

The bug in particular really needs addressing. I've rounded corners into friendly mechs without Doritos several times, and in fact have TK'd friendlies as a result at least twice. I generally keep tabs on where friendlies are, but in a brawl with random ECM coverage around, an unfamiliar mech without a Dorito? I'll shoot first, ask questions later, if I don't know otherwise.

Of course, there's common sense and logic applied. I pay attention to whether I'm under ECM or not, and early in the match I try to get visuals on my allies (PUG matches), but due to the dispersed spawn locations it's not uncommon for me to not see a friendly mech at ID ranges (where the game actually draws colors etc) until it's way too late. If it's not possible for an enemy mech to be there, then obviously I'm not going to fire at him. But it's been my experience in CQB urban brawl (around buildings in Crimson Strait, River City, etc) firing first is also firing last. You can't wait to see if they'll fire at you first, and even if you're packing TAG, you may as well just wait for them to fire first for the time it takes.

I don't mind the interactions with ECM, but friendly mechs are always supposed to have blue Doritos, and they need to have them.

StalaggtIKE, on 13 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

I did not experience this bug until ECM was introduced. Coincidence? I think not.

It wasn't a bug initially. The initial ECM implementation deliberately removed ALL doritos.

[Carrie Harder]

ITT:




"He who controls the doritos, shall control the world."

-Imaginary philosopher

................

Serious note: One idea might be to allow you to get doritos against ECM'd targets, but simply no paper doll or weapons info. Or perhaps only provide parts of the paper doll/weapons, rather than listing all of them like on a normal target.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Given that these two are regularly used as rationale for "fixing" ECM, I say deal with those first before touching ECM.

Or is there an ulterior motive for people not wanting to fix these? ...

The issue with your suggestion is that ECM's behavior has primarily remained unchanged even before the Doritos bug got worse.

It's not like people haven't experienced ECM for at least 1.5 years (assuming they've been here since Open Beta when ECM was introduced).

[DocBach]

....Mystere was disappointed when they added doritos back to friendlies inside of an enemy ECM bubble.

Edited by DocBach, 13 September 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Deathlike]

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

....Mystere was disappointed when you could still see friendlies on the minimap inside of an enemy ECM bubble.

Besides the lack of a Command Rose for asking for help (still required, even if PGI doesn't implement VOIP), it's a scary thought back then when you were "engulfed" in the ECM bubble and disappeared off the team's radar. As far as most people were concerned, you were dead (which was usually the result). Fortunately that aspect was removed.. but those that were radar savvy would be able to spot that out and possibly help... the problem though that very FEW people were good at this.

What's worse though is what makes the blob formation much more "vital"... although ECM had changed a little... but it would justify the blob mentality much more significantly.

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

The issue with your suggestion is that ECM's behavior has primarily remained unchanged even before the Doritos bug got worse.

It still does not change the fact that [1] bugs need to be fixed and [2] new players need better help, preferably before touching any systems affected by them. Those two items have been used as excuses long enough.

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

It's not like people haven't experienced ECM for at least 1.5 years (assuming they've been here since Open Beta when ECM was introduced).

I like ECM just fine, and that's from being on both sides of the ECM/anti-ECM machanic.

I'm not saying it cannot be improved. But most "improvements" I have seen so far seek to nerf them into the ground or eliminate them outright.

[Wolfways]

A few days ago i was in my Nova on Frozen City and i rounded a corner and bumped into a Timber Wolf with no dorito about 200m from me and I just waited to see if he fired at me. I'm not sure if he was seeing the same thing as i was but we just stood looking directly at each other for about 10 seconds before he turned and left.
It was quite a surreal moment

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

....Mystere was disappointed when they added doritos back to friendlies inside of an enemy ECM bubble.

Yes I was.

Deathlike, on 13 September 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Besides the lack of a Command Rose for asking for help (still required, even if PGI doesn't implement VOIP), it's a scary thought back then when you were "engulfed" in the ECM bubble and disappeared off the team's radar. As far as most people were concerned, you were dead (which was usually the result). Fortunately that aspect was removed.. but those that were radar savvy would be able to spot that out and possibly help... the problem though that very FEW people were good at this.

What's worse though is what makes the blob formation much more "vital"... although ECM had changed a little... but it would justify the blob mentality much more significantly.

And this was why.

Edited by Mystere, 13 September 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I've said it since 2012, and I'll say it again:

ECM is broken. But PGI won't fix it.

Paul has said he's happy with it. Unless we get the goons to knock Paul down with a team of 12 ECM mechs, he's not going to change it, I think.

[Deathlike]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

It still does not change the fact that [1] bugs need to be fixed and [2] new players need better help, preferably before touching any systems affected by them. Those two items have been used as excuses long enough.

Those excuses have been valid for a long time.. particularly the new player part.

Even then, the problem has been pretty longstanding that extremes like having the MM deal with it is wholly unrealistic. That's what makes ECM needs to be addressed... not necessarily because the hyperbole, but rather, it's mechanics are far more reaching that people realize.

Quote

I like ECM just fine, and that's from being on both sides of the ECM/anti-ECM machanic.

I'm not saying it cannot be improved. But most "improvements" I have seen so far seek to nerf them into the ground or eliminate them outright.

Well, they have to be reworked in a more serious manner. Just saying "nerfing it into the ground" is effectively hyperbole. It's not simple as the issue is far more complex than just "Doritos" gobbling.

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

And this was why.

Those are rare moments. There are no "proper tools" to ask for help. Even way back when... it has been repeated before in no uncertain tones is if you needed help, you needed to give a location (like, you had to type it out if you weren't on coms). Usually by then, you're probably already toast (and that some people aren't capable/able of typing out "help @ X location" in mid-combat).

Edited by Deathlike, 13 September 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lets not forget that ECM was worthwhile even in the days of MW4 where all it did was reduce the range a single mech could be detected and increased missile lock time against it by a short amount (25% or something like that). It just wasn't overpowered enough that you always took it on a mech that could carry it, and it didn't have to be limited from certain 'heroic' mechs out of fear of P2W....

ECM and Ghost Doritos are OP.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 13 September 2014 - 09:40 AM.