72 replies to this topic

[Haji1096]

The only problem I have with ECM is that if you could take it on every mech you would. Definitely the most powerful piece of equipment in the game.

As far as re-balancing LRMS when ECM is removed, I'm not sure what would be right.

How about giving LRMS the ability to be aimed via the map ? I.E. you should be able to dumb fire to coordinates on map and set firing angle for dumb fire only.

Edited by Haji1096, 13 September 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[Mystere]

KingCobra, on 13 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

ECM is fine there are 100 more important things to deal with in MWO to make it survive as a viable game like MAPS or even MORE GAME MODES or bug fixes.I just cant believe the players that are pushing for a ECM fix instead of the important things needed in this game.And PGI is like sure fellas let us delay important content just so we can fix a ECM problem that is a minor irritation to a few groups and is relatively a mute point in SOLO mm game drops.

If I were PGI I would completely ignore all this ECM folly and continue to produce relevant content to pacify the players they still have before they leave the sinking ship.

Precisely. There are better things to deal with than ECM: fix existing bugs, improve the new player experience, add better communication tools. I say deal with those first as they are far more important than "fixing" ECM.

Targetloc, on 13 September 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

The gist of what I'm reading so far is most players who think ECM is fine don't have a strong opinion on ECM itself, but have strong opinions on the imbalance of LRMs, or feel working on ECM takes away dev time from a larger problem they want to see fixed.

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 13 September 2014 - 04:17 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

This thread is hilarious. Almost no one answers the actual question. And most answers revolve around LRMs. So ******* dumb.

[Theodore42]

Quxudica, on 13 September 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

I'd much much rather see a redesign of how LRMs function. Imo they should require NARC or TAG to allow indirect fire, otherwise the LRM mech itself should have to have and hold LoS to use them.

Ok I'm really confused about the ECM argument, and I always have been. Until recently ECM was just a mild annoyance that meant I couldn't see my enemy's components. But I've recently started flying a medium LRM boat with a TAG laser and enjoy the heck out of it. Yes, I can see how it is annoying that I lock onto a mech with my TAG and 100+ missiles from all over the map come down on you. It brings me a very tragic sense joy for sure.

I quoted Quxudica because, as someone who doesn't quite understand the debate, this quote seems to express the issue. I don't know much about the lore, but I've read that sharing target info on TT is more difficult than in game (it requires special equipment). ECM threads are really common and I don't really get the issue. Let me ask three questions so people who aren't understanding the debate (maybe only me!) will get what the problem is.

1 How are LRMs broken? I'm less interested in what changes should be made and more interested in how the GAMEPLAY should be changed.

2 Why is LOS for the LRM mech needed (without TAG and NARC)? Again, what is wrong with the current gameplay and how would you like changes to affect gameplay?

3 Most generally, from these two questions, how do you want the gameplay to change in game overall?

I really only have experience playing MW2 and MWO (although I've played a lot of both!) and to me there isn't much of a problem, it just is what it is.

[Mystere]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 September 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

This thread is hilarious. Almost no one answers the actual question. And most answers revolve around LRMs. So ******* dumb.

Well, I think "fixing" ECM a priority over other things -- fixing existing bugs, improving the new player experience, adding better communication tools -- is kinda dumb.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Chive On, on 13 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I use ECM, and of course fight mechs equipped with ECM. I like the current dynamic, it's challenging. IMHO people want an easy button, no offense. I don't like posting on these boards because of the hatred and vile that will undoubtedly follow; because I don't agree with the group consensus. Also, my return button won't let me make a new paragraph LOL so I will just end with this. If you took out ECM today, would the game be better?

What exactly is challenging about the current ECM dynamic for the one using it? If anything, ECM is the easy button because very little thought goes into using it. It just does what it does.

Countering ECM is the challenging part.

[Livebait]

KingCobra, on 13 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

ECM is fine there are 100 more important things to deal with in MWO to make it survive as a viable game like MAPS or even MORE GAME MODES or bug fixes.I just cant believe the players that are pushing for a ECM fix instead of the important things needed in this game.And PGI is like sure fellas let us delay important content just so we can fix a ECM problem that is a minor irritation to a few groups and is relatively a mute point in SOLO mm game drops.

If I were PGI I would completely ignore all this ECM folly and continue to produce relevant content to pacify the players they still have before they leave the sinking ship.

I think the reason ECM is always coming up, it's because it has never been implemented correctly. When ECM came out and PGI kept saying it was fine, that was when the first wave of players started to leave.

I would like to see more maps made but I totally understand why ECM keeps coming up. As others have said, it involves a lot of weapons systems as well. It's linked with LRM's for sure. And it makes you invisible to radar!

I would like AMS to get some love. But, I don't see that happening soon. If ECM gets reworked, other things are going to need tweaking as well or it'll end up a giant pile of excrement.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Well, I think "fixing" ECM a priority over other things -- fixing existing bugs, improving the new player experience, adding better communication tools -- is kinda dumb.

Which has nothing to do with this thread. Talk to Russ.

[Mystere]

Sleek34, on 13 September 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

1. Is to have the matchmaker make sure each team either has none or the same number on each side (maybe 2 light ecm vs 1 Atlas D-DC)

No. That's more eSports, which I frankly want less of. If you want that kind of equality, go do it in a private match.

[Mystere]

TopDawg, on 13 September 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Actually just for clarification, it was Russ that kind of pitched this to the community to try and tackle; and isn't supposed to be interfering with CW rollout at all as far as I know.

Just wanted to clarify so that you and others were aware so that you in turn would be able to make others aware with similar points, thanks!

And the push back from a segment of the community is: There are other more important things to deal with.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 September 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Which has nothing to do with this thread. Talk to Russ.

If he is indeed listening, then he already should take a hint.

Also, enough people have already said what I also think about ECM, so there is no need for me to repeat the same things.

Edited by Mystere, 13 September 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[Wolfways]

Theodore42, on 13 September 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

1 How are LRMs broken? I'm less interested in what changes should be made and more interested in how the GAMEPLAY should be changed.

LRM's are only "broken" in the sense that many players either can't or won't learn to avoid them, and some just dislike the weapon so much that they'd like to see it removed from the game.

Quote

2 Why is LOS for the LRM mech needed (without TAG and NARC)? Again, what is wrong with the current gameplay and how would you like changes to affect gameplay?

3 Most generally, from these two questions, how do you want the gameplay to change in game overall?

I can't really comment on being a target of LRM's as it generally doesn't affect me...but i don't really care if indirect-fire is nerfed, but direct-fired they do need a buff or two.
When using LRM's the fact that ECM forces you to use a supposedly optional piece of equipment (TAG, NARC) which are designed (In BT) to improve the weapons and be countered by ECM, just because PGI decided ECM should negate LRM's/SSRM's and make ECM/ECCM work backwards, is just...wrong. LRM's/SSRM's should not be negated by ECM, as in this link: http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite it states clearly "Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal."

[Mystere]

Wolfways, on 13 September 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

LRM's are ECM is only "broken" in the sense that many players either can't or won't learn to avoid work around them, and some just dislike the weapon equipment so much that they'd like to see it removed from the game.

Fixed that for you.

[Wolfways]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Fixed that for you.

I've never heard of anyone wanting ECM removed from the game...

[Mystere]

Wolfways, on 13 September 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

I've never heard of anyone wanting ECM removed from the game...

Here are samples one, two, and three.

That was too easy. You should have known better than that.

[Wolfways]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

Here are samples one, two, and three.

That was too easy. You should have known better than that.

Well yes...i should have said "with a good reason"
But i doubt there are many who actually want their LRM umbrella removed.

[KraftySOT]

Id like to see ECM removed. Well that is to say, id like it to work like the Battletech ECM, and id like a guardian ecm, and a normal ecm, which can be switched between ecm and eccm modes.

*shrug*

Id ALSO like to see indirect fire get the penalty to hits it should have without the NARC and Tag and whatnot assistance.

Indirect fire is really only good with Vibrabomb ammo for LRMs (which id love to see, for locking down scouting paths)

[KraftySOT]

And if you gave everyone a laser that did 400 damage, no one would want to give that up either. What people want to, and dont want to give up, honestly doesnt matter. The game being fair, and based on the battletech rules, is going to draw in customers, and thats whats really important.

ECM as it is, is only that way because LRMs are bloody ridiculous compared to the board game. An LRM 20 is pretty pathetic really. Its ammo can explode, and it doesnt do reliable damage. Maybe 5-7 damage, if it his, in a 5 dam, and 2 dam group, randomly across the mech. Theyre pretty innaccurate.

LRMs in this game are like bloody Tomahawk cruise missiles. Reduce the effectiveness of them, and then ECM as we have it now, is pretty silly. But since LRMs have their place at the table, ECM as it is, is kind of required.

[Lyoto Machida]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I am interested to know why you think that way.

(This is not a place to openly disagree with someone.. I am hoping to just gather why they think that way, in order to either change my mind, or mold my argument to change theirs.)

I will not be voicing disagreements with arguments, that is not the purpose of this. Please refrain from doing so, as well.

If ECM is really fine, let us equip it on all mechs like BAP and AMS (for the most part). They're about the same tonnage so there should not be any issues in terms of balance.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 September 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

If ECM is really fine, let us equip it on all mechs like BAP and AMS (for the most part). They're about the same tonnage so there should not be any issues in terms of balance.

Lets give everyone clan XL engines while we're at it..... they're about the same tonnage so there should not be any issues in terms of balance.

[IceSerpent]

Theodore42, on 13 September 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

1 How are LRMs broken? I'm less interested in what changes should be made and more interested in how the GAMEPLAY should be changed.

2 Why is LOS for the LRM mech needed (without TAG and NARC)? Again, what is wrong with the current gameplay and how would you like changes to affect gameplay?

3 Most generally, from these two questions, how do you want the gameplay to change in game overall?

Check my post here. To summarize gameplay changes: there should be no hard counters for any weapon system (i.e. it shouldn't be possible to render it completely ineffective by merely mounting a specific piece of equipment) and there should be a long range direct fire weapon that occupies missile harpoint. "Artillery" role should be left for Arrow IV / Long Tom if and when they get added to the game. Arty and normal weapons need to balanced separately, because when those roles are mixed we get the current LRM situation where organzed teams think that LRMs are junk, PUGs think that they are OP...and both got a valid point.