38 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

So, Russ has given us an opportunity.

We have the chance to put together a 1 time Advisory Committee, not to form power blocks, or push agenda, but to propose fixes for one of our oldest and most contentious issues: Guardian ECM.



As for me?


I have a simple proposal. I don't consider it the final one, or even the total one. But it is an idea that might be part of the fix.


Put ECM on a toggle. On/off. When on, the ECM mech cannot use lock on weapons.

When switching between modes, from off to on, and when on, from Counter to Disrupt, have it require a 3-5 "dead" period as the various electronics and countermeasures spool up.



Do I consider it a perfect answer? No. But it also requires very little reworking of the base mechanics themselves.


Another possible fix? Anytime enemy ECM overlaps, it disrupts each other, making creating ECM umbrellas more difficult.


Perhaps it is a flaw, but I prefer simple, easy to institute solutions within existing mechanics, whenever possible as they are far more likely to be implemented than tearing everything down and starting from scratch.



So, you turn.

[Carrie Harder]

Some random/basic brainstorms of mine:

A. Missile locks can now be gained against any target within LoS (targets without red dorito will take longer to lock, however).

B. No longer prevents red doritos. Instead, it allows red doritos but prevents the display of enemy weapon loadouts and paper doll.

C. No longer prevents missile locks.

D. An ECM in counter mode can counter any number of ECM around it, rather than just 1.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 13 September 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Davegt27]

Not that I have a problem with ECM

But you could have two types of ECM
Type I) designed for individual mechs it would be weaker with a 50 meter rage

Type II) area ECM which would work like the current ECM but it’s going to cost you, like installing a laser or an AC cannon


I think the real problem with ECM is one it does not allow you to do what you want (and that's what it’s designed to do)

So you have to work thru the problem

And the big one it is inconsistent some matches it almost seems like the other team has some super ECM (I think this is done for balance)

[Kirkland Langue]

My suggestion:

If you fire LRM at a target under ECM cover, then the spread of the missiles is increased significantly.

[Diablobo]

The only change that needs to be made is that ECM no longer shields mechs from being targeted by LRMs and Streaks. It does however increase the lock-on time, negate the benefits of Artemis and Tag, and prevent indirect targeting by LRMs.

[Mohawk Howell]

I'd like to see three modes.

• Disrupt: Slows down lock on times, removes Artemis bonus, prevents Indirect LRM fire. has 180m Range
  
• Jam: Jams a single Mech in LoS, prevents use of Lock on Weapons, prevents targeting data. Basic allyECM as it is now, but for only one targeted Mech in LoS of the ECMer. 180m Range (Negotiable)
  
• Counter: Prevents both of the above.

It would make ECM useful, especially for light scouts but not overpowering, also could create some really interesting BAP interactions.

Edited by Mohawk Howell, 13 September 2014 - 08:39 PM.

[Malleus011]

Bishop's solution has the virtue of being simple and easy to implement. It (and ideas like it) should probably be 'under consideration' when we attempt to form a consensus.

Personally, I'd prefer removing the 'stealth' effect entirely (mechs under ECM can be targeted, but take longer to lock; NARC, TAG, Artemis, BAP, and likely a few modules don't have any effect within 180m) - but I do think that solution would require the removal of 'indirect' LRM fire (against non LOS targets which aren't TAG'd, NARC'd, or UAV'd). The second part isn't a required part of my preferred ECM fix, but LRMs would get rather nasty for a time without it.

[Rebas Kradd]

I like. And so do the PGI engineers, most likely. Doesn't require a month of work for them.

Whatever system we come up with for ECM, it needs to be simple. I know none of the hardcore folk want that, but new players will be driven away from the game by the rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock-shoe-slingshot "passive radar" game that some people are advocating.

[CocoaJin]

ECM is apparently supposed to have two modes, one that provides improved detection like BAP, or the other which is essentially jamming.

Improved detection mode should extend detection ranges for the user mech(providing full target detail), but also make him easier to detect by the enemy by approximatly 2x the detection range of the ECM detect user(but with no target detail). Ex: Detect user gets full target data at let's say 750m, the enemy gets only a target square at 1500m, but no target info). Perhaps using it generates small amounts of heat...not making you hotter, just not letting you cool.

Jamming mode is basically sensory noise. In theory, it could have possibly been set for a selective unit or sensor suite, but doing so would have left it detectable by every other unit and every other sensory suite...so instead, it uses broad/multi-spectrum disruption. Once again, maybe it generates some heat so you can't or it is harder to cool.

Jamming would not be pure stealth. It wouldn't be gauranteed protection from locks and it wouldn't distinguish between friend or foe.

Jamming would produce intermittent contacts, locks and displaced locks with no IDing info when at its outer range(intermittent and erroneous blips, requiring line of sight to confirm) of let's say 1000m.

At intermediate ECM range(750m), you'd get displaced locks that improve as you close, but it would take longer to achieve locks, intermittent IDing would appear. Standard/conventional missiles such as LRM and Streaks would still work per canon, but would be affected by longer lock times and would suffer decreased accuracy(increased missile spread and misses).

ECM would affect all, friend or foe. Two opposing ECMs on Jamming mode wouldn't counter each other, it would make it worse for all within their overlapping range.

An ECM on detect mode would not hard counter an ECM on jam, it would only reduce the effectiveness and lock delay of the jamming for the detect mode user only...this detect soft counter to jam would not stack...meaning two ECM on detect would not eliminate the jamming or stack the soft counter effect. Target link data from the detect ECM users would only transfer a portion of its soft counter to allies. Receiving target data link from a friendly ECM on detect would result in you having lock values worse than that of the friendly ECM on detect that's relaying the target data to you.

Being in close proximity(200m) to an ECM on jam would produce static, slight view screen wash-out and intermittent HUD disruption for all, friend or foe.

[Geck0]

This issue I see is they took the basic way it worked in TT and applied it to the wrong mechanics of the game: Targeting, transmitting information, lock on's, etc. These as we've seen have had dramatic effects to the point that the counters to them had to be buffed repeatedly.

Idea: Make its basic function counter equipment based electronics instead of game mechanic based electronics. To be clear I consider Tag, narc, Artemis, UAV's and Beagle as equipment based electronics.

Then, allow basic functions that are currently being blocked but in a much less effective form. (the following are just spit balling ideas but you get the point) Example: Allow the targeting of ECM covered mech but it drops off after a certain duration (5 seconds maybe). So you have to reacquire it. Allow the transmitting of enemy locations but not lock on or other data. Allow missile lock on but at slower rate and a wider spread.

The premise of these changes (or others like them) is to make ECM counter what people bring on their mechs. To have a counter play to things like Narc, tag, etc. Not basic game mechanics which would (and has) alter balance in dramatic ways. You can even have it counter UAV's that are in range by only allowing it to give locations but not lock on or loadout/dmg data. The idea is to let it counter the extras people are bringing, not the basics they need.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Geck0, 13 September 2014 - 08:58 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

The ultimate ECM fix is simple: shift all of electronic warfare from hard counters to soft counters. Using some sample numbers, we might see the following:

ECM: 180m radius. Any mech under friendly ECM has its detection radius reduced by 300m, and requires +3s for enemies to acquire locks. Missiles tracking a mech under friendly ECM have +50% spread and -50% tracking rate/agility. Target info time also goes up by 2s.

BAP: 120m radius (cBAP has 150m radius). It allows the mech carrying it to acquire targets that are shut down or not in Line of Sight within that radius.

TAG: 750m range. A mech lit up by a hostile TAG suffers from a -2.5s lock-on timer, and missiles tracking a target under TAG gain -30% spread and +30% tracking rate/agility. A mech under hostile TAG may be targeted regardless of detection range (to the max 750m range of the TAG).

Artemis IV: Line of Sight only. It offers -2s lock-on time and -50% spread, as well as +60% tracking rate/agility.

NARC: A mech hit by a NARC has a +200m detection radius, and can be spotted regardless of Line of Sight (so long as the mech is within detection range).

UAV: Simply acts as a spotting source, as if a mech sensor suite were at its location with standard Line of Sight and detection range.

PPCs: Lose the anti-ECM effect, gain a different EMP effect (wipes current Target Info, maybe does something else too).

Any single source of modifiers can only be applied once (no stacking of same unique bonuses), but all sources can be applied once (stacking of different unique bonuses).

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 13 September 2014 - 09:01 PM.

[Rasc4l]

I'll just add also here what I replied to Homeless Bill in another thread:

Homeless Bill, on 13 September 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Ultimately, it's a distinct possibility, and I think they need to be confronted with that. If ECM just disappeared from the game,

We'll see how everything plays out, but I think the council is going to have to pick a solution this is palatable to 80% of the

I want comprehensive. Believe me, I do. I think it's almost a fool's errand at this point, but I'd like to prove that - at least

Very well then, only ECM. In that case, allow this fool to propose something in the line of already existing ECM functionalities:

From the wiki "When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD."

This should be changed to 1/2 so that the scoutable range to find an ECM mech would change from 180-200 m to 180-400 m. Currently, scouts are required to run too close to enemy ECM bubble if they want to report them to teammates electronically (that ridiculous 20 m band) -> they are killed if they are foolish enough to try to coexist with an enemy DDC at that range. And the scouts should be able to target enemy ECM-covered mechs but slower from this 180-400 range and relay that information to friendly LRM boats.

Changing this already brings ECM mechs closer to normal mechs regarding their sensor image and greatly reduces the on/off nature.


"It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech."

Should be 3x as long now that the ECM covered mechs are visible from 400 m. But should not concern TAG, which should target ECM covered mechs just as well as normal mechs. Pilots using that should be rewarded, because they're easily receiving some nasty pinpoint focus fire in addition to being LRM-spammed for their efforts. The other option is to instead make TAG laser invisible as it should be.


"Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range."

Should be changed to: Narc beacons will stick to hidden mechs and completely negate their ECM bonuses. Other hidden non-ECM mechs in the bubble are fine. If ECM mech is narced, the ECM is disabled and the whole ECM bubble is nullified but only for 1/2 the default NARC duration.

-> Creates a scouting subgame for NARCing lights "fish the ECM mech", where they are able expose enemy ECM-bubble if played correctly. If they miss and hit a non-ECM mech, they'll still expose someone. With proper XP and especially C-Bill rewards, we no longer have single digit light queue, because scouting works at least a little.

To sum it up, 3 little tweaks to existing ECM functionality to "spread" the Information Warfare a little:

- ECM visibility changed from 180-200 m to 180-400 m (the most important and because there already is such visibility windows built into the game, that's why I didn't think my proposal would be so difficult to do)
- Missile locking time to ECM changed from 2x as difficult to 3x. Negated for TAG.
- ECM-covered non-ECM mechs can be NARCed, which negates the ECM effect, NARCed ECM mechs have their ECMs completely disabled for 1/2 normal NARC duration.

Edited by Rasc4l, 14 September 2014 - 04:46 AM.

[DocBach]

Although Russ has opened a dialogue regarding just changing ECM, the Information Warfare pillar revolves so much around ECM that any change to ECM would likely require other game pieces that interact with it be revised as well to maintain a homeostasis of balance between them, notably LRM's; below is my recommendations for such changes.

LRM's

In the source material, LRM's suffer a +1 to hit penalty for firing indirectly. This can be directly translated into MWO by giving indirect fire a base 50% lock on time penalty.

Indirect fire LRM's currently have low-risk, high-reward for players racking up damage from behind cover; making locks take longer increases the chance spotters will lose the lock, making LRM boats either not take the shots they previously could or have to expose themselves to enemy fire to gain locks manually.

ECM

If ECM is going to continue to provide stealth effects, I would say a reduction in the amount of stealth it provides for 'Mechs in the open. If an ECM 'Mech is in direct line of sight of friendly 'Mech sensors, perhaps instead of the 200m flat cap, incremental detection ranges for different weight classes could make things a bit more balanced -- as 'Mechs do not utilize Stealth armor in the timeline we are in, we will simplify radar detection rules from Tactical Operations with the explanation that larger 'Mechs have larger radar cross sections that are more difficult to hide from sensors (this also gives Stealth Armor the ability to have a role if it is ever introduced);

Standard sensors can detect enemy 'Mechs in the open 800m away
ECM protected assault 'Mechs can be detected within 700m
ECM protected heavy 'Mechs can be detected within 600m
ECM protected medium 'Mechs can be detected within 500m
ECM protected light 'Mechs can be detected within 400m

Sensor modules will increase the range in which ECM can be detected like they do currently. Beagle, however, will be countered by ECM and will not affect detection range of ECM 'Mechs.

Enemy 'Mechs in the vicinity of an ECM bubble have a penalty to lock on, but are not completely unable to lock like currently:

Detected ECM 'Mechs have a 50% penalty for missile lock speed
Indirect fire against ECM 'Mechs have a 100% lock on time penalty

This penalty is supported by expanded rules in Tactical Operations outlining Ghost mode that give 'Mechs protected by ECM a +1 modifier to hit against. For the sake of simplicity, the effect of Ghost mode is rolled in to Disrupt mode. Like the base penalty for LRM indirect fire mentioned previously, this can translate to longer lock on time for our purposes in the real time MechWarrior Online. As indirect fire already has a 50% penalty to lock on time, the time is increased to 100%.

ECM protected 'Mechs that are targeted have a 100% longer time to gain targeting information each time the 'Mech is selected, which would still provide ECM an ability to shroud information like damage condition and weapons load out. This is supported by several Battletech background manuals and rule sets that explain that ECM prohibits sensors from identifying ECM protected 'Mechs, but not detecting them outright.

A 'Mech inside of an enemy ECM bubble cannot share targets with other friendly 'Mechs.

ECM will still provide incredible utility for a 1.5 ton piece of equipment, and though it will no longer provide as much sensor immunity or protection from guided weapons, it still acts as a debuff to both. Scaling detection based on 'Mech class also allows smaller recon or sniper 'Mechs to continue to operate at longer ranges without sensor detection.

Artemis

Artemis should decrease the spread and increases tracking strength of missiles fired on targets within the line of sight. It should not improve the spread of indirectly fired weapons, but would negate the 50% penalty for indirect fire. ECM is the hard counter to Artemis and LRM's with Artemis function as if they do not have it against ECM protected enemies.

Artemis serves as a direct buff to both direct fire and indirect fire LRM's, ECM serves as the debuff.

NARC

If ECM is changed to the above suggestions, NARC will no longer counter ECM, rather ECM should be changed back in line with the source material so that a 'Mech that is affected by NARC can find refuge inside of an ECM umbrella. NARC will continue to reveal a 'Mech hit with one on the mini-map and allow lock ons without direct line of sight. Targets that are affected by

NARC in line of sight gain tighter LRM grouping and tracking strength similar to Artemis.
Add an in cockpit warning to 'Mechs affected by NARC - something simple, clear, and concise to let the pilot know he should seek the protection of an ECM field or cover. "NARC SIGNAL DETECTED" or something to that effect.

NARC removes the spotter's requirement of needing to keep a target in line of sight or locked, meaning it can spot a target then return to cover to avoid enemy fire. It also serves as a buff for LRM fire in direct line of sight, but ECM debuffs it.

Beagle Active Probe

Beagle should gain the information gathering ability described in the expanded Tactical Operations manual to bring its utility as a 1.5 ton electronic warfare piece in line functionally with ECM. Beagle should be able to detect enemies within 120 (150 for Clan) meters despite line of sight and target them, for instance if an enemy is behind the cover of a hill or building a unit with Beagle can detect and target it. ECM will regain its disruptive ability from the base rules and block this ability.

A unit with Beagle Active Probe and ECM can use the effects of both; It can detect enemy units in its range while it is out of sight, unless they are protected with their own ECM, with its own ECM blocking it from the enemy detecting it.

Beagle Active Probe becomes much more useful tool for gathering information, especially for spotters by giving them the ability to spot for targets from behind cover. It has limited range so players using it must utilize cover and concealment and stealth techniques to avoid being detected. ECM acts as the counter to this.

TAG

TAG mitigates the penalties for missile lock times brought about either from firing indirectly or firing against an enemy who is in an ECM field and increases missile tracking against targets designated by TAG.

TAG completely negates the lock on penalty effect for indirect fire against a 'Mech outside of an ECM field, and the lock on penalty effect for firing LRM's against an ECM protected 'Mech in line of sight to 0, and mitigates the penalty for firing upon an ECM protected 'Mech indirectly to a 50% penalty.

TAG's effective range is reduced back to 450m; this means LRM boats either have to close in distance to use their own, or rely on spotters using TAG to mitigate the missile lock time penalties.

TAG against an ECM protected enemy will allow the unit to be targeted and locked, but no longer allows for information gathering on to ECM protected 'Mechs outside of sensor detection range -- TAG is a target designating laser, not a sensor system.

ECM will block the effects of a spotter using TAG within its 180 meter bubble, as the spotter cannot transmit target data outside of the ECM bubble.

TAG acts as a buff for indirect fire and allows for ECM units to be targeted, but does not outright cancel all of ECM's effects such as hiding paper doll information.

PPC/ER PPC

PPC's and ER PPC's no longer have any effect against ECM.

With ECM no longer being a hard counter to basic systems such as LRM's and sensors, no additional equipment is required to use missiles. As we scale back ECM's effects while adding new effects to other systems we can remove some of the counters added as a knee-jerk reaction when PGI added a laundry list of counters to ECM rather than just changing ECM itself. Notable, PPC's are a skill based counter, projectiles that had to be aimed and led moving at 850/950ms where ECM is a passive system.

UAV

UAV's will have the same effects in game as they currently do.

The effects of UAV's in MechWarrior Online remain unchanged; units within its detection radius will be able to be tracked and targeted for either the duration of the UAV or until it is destroyed.

Edited by DocBach, 14 September 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[kapusta11]

• Increase the spread of normal LRMs 2 times, this is a base spread, it is constant and it can’t be less than it is.
  
• Artemis/NARC/TAG/UAV/BAP greatly improve the clustering of missiles (0.33-0.50) and are additive with each other.
  
• ECM share the same effects with Artemis/NARC/TAG/UAV/BAP but is substractive with them.
  
• ECM no longer affects lock acquisition or lock time.
  
• Optional: increase LRM projectile speed to 300mps. Lock time and distance to target, divided by missile speed, determine the time between firing LRM and hitting the target, if it’s to high they will be useless if there is some cover nearby no matter what you do so 1 sec lock + 0.5-1 sec flight time is enough IMO.

Now modified missile spread is calculated according to formula:

ModifiedSpread = Spread*(1 + Artemis + NARC + TAG + UAV + N1*BAP – N2*ECM)

Where :

• Spread – base missile spread
  
• Artemis/NARC/TAG/UAV/BAP/ECM – constants, each equal to 0.33-0.50 if equipped and are additive/substractive with each other, may vary depending on system, may add C3 network bonus in future.
  
• N1, N2 number of BAPs and ECMs that affect the target, you may add additional N3 for TAG.

Example: Target A is covered by 1 ECM and is TAGed it is also affected by two BAPs from the enemy spotters that are nearby. The resulting spread of LRM fire against target A is Base Spread*(1 + 0.5 + 2*0.5 – 0.5) = Base Spread*2

Pros:

• Works fine in environment with multiple ECM overlaping each other.
  
• Inderect fire spam is ineffective without serious spotting work
  
• ECM does not make LRMs completelly useless, minimal spread is always equal to base.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 September 2014 - 07:05 AM.

[Thejuggla]

I'd like to see the stealth part of it removed. The missile lock on time increase should be maybe 6 seconds and amd current counters will make lock on take normal time. Ex. artemis locking onto ecm takes a normal lock time. I think this would require little work and bring it in line with what it's suppose to be doing instead of this awesome stealth shield box.

[Dracol]

Simplest solution of all: Increase the window that ECM covered mechs can be pickup on radar.

Current: 180 to 240 (without any additional equipment

Proposed: 180 to 400 (without any additional equipment)

This still allows tactical movement without being auto found by Doritos. Gives LRM mechs a larger window of operation.

[Bishop Steiner]

DocBach, on 14 September 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

stuff

Dude...are you trying to hurt my brain?
I will definitely have to reread this AFTER my morning coffee, lol.

[DocBach]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Dude...are you trying to hurt my brain?
I will definitely have to reread this AFTER my morning coffee, lol.

I'm going to be editing it later today with references and the like and a bit of formatting. I'm like 40 minutes from getting off shift at the hospital so I'm going to go to bed first.

[Prezimonto]

Davegt27, on 13 September 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Not that I have a problem with ECM

But you could have two types of ECM
Type I) designed for individual mechs it would be weaker with a 50 meter rage

Type II) area ECM which would work like the current ECM but it’s going to cost you, like installing a laser or an AC cannon


I think the real problem with ECM is one it does not allow you to do what you want (and that's what it’s designed to do)

So you have to work thru the problem

And the big one it is inconsistent some matches it almost seems like the other team has some super ECM (I think this is done for balance)

Actually I think it could be really smart to break up ECM into smaller pieces and you have to pick and choose.

1. An ECM that hides just you from detection, but has a very small field. It shows up on BAP as a 10m circle on the map when in long range of the front cone of a mech with BAP.
2. An intermediate ECM field with around 80 range, enough to hide a lance, performs like our current ECM, with the exception that no one under the field of ECM can acquire locks/target information while it's on. Again BAP can detect it's 80m envelope and display it on the map.
3. A broad ECM field out to 180 m, allows mechs under it to acquire target locks but only doubles the time to lock for enemies to fire LRM/SSRM and to gather target information. Again BAP can display the circle on the map, as long as BAP is outside the range of the field.

All are ECM of some sort, each is much more balanced.

Of course any serious changes to ECM(even Bishop's OP) also MUST involve changes to indirect fire of LRM's... and thereby probably also direct fire of LRMs.

As always... please pick apart any ideas I post.

To Bishop: any change to seriously balance ECM will require some kind of LRM rework. I don't mind if the ECM changes are simple to help pushing them out, but I don't think the downstream effects of changing ECM can be ignored.

[Rasc4l]

Dracol, on 14 September 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

Simplest solution of all: Increase the window that ECM covered mechs can be pickup on radar.

Current: 180 to 240 (without any additional equipment

Proposed: 180 to 400 (without any additional equipment)

This still allows tactical movement without being auto found by Doritos. Gives LRM mechs a larger window of operation.

You are 100 % correct and this is the basis of my 3-item proposal a bit above. I also throw in the boosted NARC and TAG while making the ECM a bit harder to lock on by default to compensate for this extra range and to avoid LRMageddon (only skilled LRM-boats and teamwork will give you benefits from "nerfed" ECM).

To DocBach: I didn't spend time enough to read through your fine proposal so that I would understand into what kind of situation it places us but I was informed by Homeless Bill that we're gonna have to keep it really simple and ONLY ECM. If 80 % of some player population has to accept it then we can't have many variables so that each one really understands it and 80 % agrees on it.