132 replies to this topic

[ramjb]

Setting: River City. Blue team has no ECM. Red team has plenty (after the battle results showed two Kitfoxes, one of them which had ECM for sure, as I spotted him, the other I don't know, one Raven 3L and one Atlas DDC).

Mech: Timberwolf-Prime with double LRM15 launchers , double LRM10s, TAG and tree CERMLs

Description of the battle: Upon startup I commented on team chat that we didn't have ECM ,that they probably did, and that sitting back as a result was not an option. Team agreed that rushing was the only chance to win so we bunched up in B3 and crossed as a hungry wolfpack. One enemy lance including the Atlas DDC offered some stern resistance at first, but after rolling over them we steamrolled the whole enemy group.

End result 12-2. Personal score, 742 damage points, most of it achieved with the LRMs/TAG combination, tho I got quite some chances to fire my CERMLs. I followed the frontlines with the group, not sitting back and hiding, but actively fighting with my teammates, TAGging anything worth shooting at and firing my misiles in chainfire almost nonstop. I actually ran out of my 1620 missiles shortly before the game ended.

Enemy ECM stacking was utterly worthless as LRMs would find their mark on anything I TAGged. Besides that three consecutive UAVs (including mine) guaranteed that ECM would mask nothing.

Oh forgot to mention, they had a couple Direwolfs. Our heaviest assault was a Banshee.


ECM is NOT OP. It's perfectly counterable. (while LRMs used with a bit of brain are hardly counterable at all).


Now this writeup I make not to argue against changes in ECM, but to certify what I've been stating all along. ECM is powerful. Very. But is not hard to counter, while LRMs used in combo with TAG can't be countered at all. It just requires a bit of thinking, and taking some useful equipment to the battlefield instead of just stacking extra ammo to shoot moar missiles.

Oh, and of course, it requires for you to move your ass from behind that hill and TAG objectives yourself.

It's not an item's fault if 90% of the PUGs playing this game have no brain nor that their attitude towards playing is that they want to sit on the same spot for the whole game point and clicking at targets marked by others.

Again, I'm not against changes in ECM, but they better come well after LRMs have been brutally (a slight nerf won't do) toned down. The massacres they are able to cause with ease can't be compared with any other weapon system. And yes, I've also used double gauss Muromets and Firebrands. Didn't feel by far as dirt and cheap as the lurmaggedons I cause whenever I enter a battle with my LRM mechs.

Edited by ramjb, 15 September 2014 - 04:37 AM.

[Mechteric]

ECM is not fine. The problem is that it is two ECM's in one. There should be two distinctly separate ECM modules:

- Guardian ECM (provides radar blanket only to the user, interferes with lock-ons)
- Angel ECM (provides radar blanket only to those around the user, not including the user, also interferes with lock-ons)


So for your ECM slot you get to choose which one of these you want based on your role. Simple, fun, better.

[Dracol]

El Bandito, on 15 September 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

Show me a match where dumb fired LRMs consistently hit those "slow moving" mechs, then I'll consider your PoV.

If only my PC was up to the task of recording games I would. Been running a LRM 35 puma over the weekend and been perfecting that particular skill.

[El Bandito]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

Again, I'm not against changes in ECM, but they better come well after LRMs have been brutally (a slight nerf won't do) toned down. The massacres they are able to cause with ease can't be compared with any other weapon system. And yes, I've also used double gauss Muromets and Firebrands. Didn't feel by far as dirt and cheap as the lurmaggedons I cause whenever I enter a battle with my LRM mechs.

Actually Double Gauss mechs are even cheaper than LRM mechs IMO due to PPFLD. There is a reason why the K2 was one of the deadliest mech back in 2012. Good thing like LRMs boats, carrying Dual Gauss has big tradeoffs.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Bigbacon]

so...why not just make changes to things like Narc and tag? if narc'd or tagged, your ECM is finished and you can't go hide under someone else?

UAV make your ECM useless.

ECM can be annoying it but no one wants to use the counters in the game to counter it or people aren't smart enough to say....target the ECM folks first, target the ECM arm on the kitfox first?

ECM is annoying sometimes but it works as intended, what isn't working is people using the counters in the game to counter it. Everyone wants it to be so easy....no one wants to take chance//

but I guess the magical elite council of elite players has already spoken and it will get destroyed just like everything else they 'suggest'...since the only players in this game that matter are the competition players....

Edited by Bigbacon, 15 September 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[ramjb]

El Bandito, on 15 September 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Actually Double Gauss mechs are even cheaper than LRM mechs IMO due to PPFLD. There is a reason why the K2 was one of the deadliest mech back in 2012. Good thing like LRMs boats, carrying Dual Gauss has big tradeoffs.

Gausses in the K2?. Jeeze, no, Gauss in a torso...eough. I don't want half my mech blowing up each time one of them gets critted. Not to mention getting a relatively fast heavy as the K2 down to a snail's pace using small STD engines (using a Gauss in a XL engined mech is just demanding a fiery instadeath, I don't care how small the cat's side torsos are). I run my K2 with UAC5s and ERLLs. A gauss on those just makes no sense.

Anyway, twin gausses. Yes, they are powerful, and yes in some circunstances are cheap. But still they demand you to step out of cover, to take aim, to lead the target (albeit very little given the bullet's speed), and to expose yourself to return fire. While a LRM boat is not forced to. Unless ECM forces it to, so he can use TAG...if the LRM boat has it. Not to mention, 4 second reload+charge time. That's more than anything but the biggest IS LRM launchers, if I'm not wrong...

[El Bandito]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

Gausses in the K2?. Jeeze, no, Gauss in a torso...eough. I don't want half my mech blowing up each time one of them gets critted. Not to mention getting a relatively fast heavy as the K2 down to a snail's pace using small STD engines (using a Gauss in a XL engined mech is just demanding a fiery instadeath, I don't care how small the cat's side torsos are). I run my K2 with UAC5s and ERLLs. A gauss on those just makes no sense.

Anyway, twin gausses. Yes, they are powerful, and yes in some circunstances are cheap. But still they demand you to step out of cover, to take aim, to lead the target (albeit very little given the bullet's speed), and to expose yourself to return fire. While a LRM boat is not forced to. Unless ECM forces it to, so he can use TAG...if the LRM boat has it. Not to mention, 4 second reload+charge time. That's more than anything but the biggest IS LRM launchers, if I'm not wrong...

PP FLD. One must keep that in mind. 30 damage (equivalent to 3 PPC blasts) in a single spot. Mech such as Jager does not have to reveal much of its body to take a shot anyway, and on mech such as the Direwhale, Dual Gauss + energy is just OP.

The Gauss reload + charge is 4.75 secs when added up, but it has faster RoF than Dual PPCs in the long run, for example, due to immense heat PPCs put out.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[ramjb]

Agree on the Jäger one. That mech is just a ballistics fan wet dream and gausses on them are one of the bigger threats. In fact the mech alltogether is just amazing, one of the best of MWO for me. So much that I always primary Jagers unless there's an assault on sight. and even then, sometimes I target the Jager first anyway, as they're not hard to pop -their only weakness- and their firepower is insane. With those high hardpoints, gausses are extremely effective.

Can't say about the Direwhale however. Haven't had any first hand experience driving them, and from the receiving end anything those monsters load is just insane firepower anyway. And while twin Gausses give them a brutal long reach punch, when in shorter ranges I fear LB10/LB20 direwhales much more than what I fear gauss ones. Is not really of importance however: those things you don't want to stand in front of, no matter what they carry.

/edit:
as for the comparison with the dual PPCs, let's remember that the bare minimum for workable battleworthy gausses is weapons+4tons of ammo (tho I'd never get into a battle with a ballistic weapon if I don't have at least 3 tons per weapon), which adds up for 34 tons, again, bare minimum. Dual PPCs are 14 tons. It's only to be expected that the Gausses deal more damage and that the PPCs suffer from heat generation as it takes much less weigh to take them into the battlefield....

Edited by ramjb, 15 September 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[stjobe]

ramjb, on 14 September 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

LRMS couldn't fire on out-of-sight targets for the launcher unless NARC was in play (an some special command&control datalink between scouts and launchers?)

InspectorG, on 14 September 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

In Battletech, a LRM user had to get their own locks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless, someone else carried a TAG or NARC.

All right, there's a bit of confusion going on here, so let me clear up some of it:

LRMs could always be fired indirectly in TT without any additional equipment:


(Total Warfare, p. 111)

That's a +1 for indirect fire, +2 if spotter is firing his own weapons. Range modifier from firer, movement modifiers from attacker, and terrain modifiers from spotters LoS. Spotter can spot for any number of attackers. No extra equipment needed.

Now on to the T2 equipment:
Artemis IV Fire Control System and Narc Missile Beacon are both systems to improve the accuracy of LRMs.

Guardian ECM Suite is the counter to the above, in that it removes their effect. That's all it does to LRMs.


(Total Warfare, p. 134)

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) has nothing to do with LRMs at all (in 3050), it's a system to spot for Arrow IV artillery (which is off-map artillery).

So you see, not only did PGI implement a much, much more powerful ECM system than in TT - it incorporates features from both the Angel ECM Suite (SSRM lock-on block, they could still be dumb-fired) and the Null Signature System / Stealth Armor (hiding of own 'mechs signature - not others though) - they also made it do something not even these three system combined would do in TT: Completely block LRMs from firing.

All for the low cost of 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots.

Hopefully this post makes you a bit better equipped to understand why those familiar with BattleTech tend to say things like "ECM is overpowered" or "ECM should be changed".

Edited by stjobe, 15 September 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[ramjb]

stjobe, on 15 September 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

All right, there's a bit of confusion going on here, so let me clear up some of it:

LRMs could always be fired indirectly in TT without any additional equipment:


(Total Warfare, p. 111)

That's a +1 for indirect fire, +2 if spotter is firing his own weapons. Range modifier from firer, movement modifiers from attacker, and terrain modifiers from spotters LoS. Spotter can spot for any number of attackers. No extra equipment needed.

Now on to the T2 equipment:
Artemis IV Fire Control System and Narc Missile Beacon are both systems to improve the accuracy of LRMs.

Guardian ECM Suite is the counter to the above, in that it removes their effect. That's all it does to LRMs.


(Total Warfare, p. 134)

Target Acquisition Gear (TAG) has nothing to do with LRMs at all (in 3050), it's a system to spot for Arrow IV artillery (which is off-map artillery).

So you see, not only did PGI implement a much, much more powerful ECM system than in TT - it incorporates features from both the Angel ECM Suite (SSRM lock-on block, they could still be dumb-fired) and the Null Signature System / Stealth Armor (hiding of own 'mechs signature - not others though) - they also made it do something not even these three system combined would do in TT: Completely block LRMs from firing.

All for the low cost of 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots.

Hopefully this post makes you a bit better equipped to understand why those familiar with BattleTech tend to say things like "ECM is overpowered" or "ECM should be changed".

According to lore, how many kintaros could go into battle loading 1980 missiles?

[stjobe]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

According to lore, how many kintaros could go into battle loading 1980 missiles?

If you want me to go off on a tangent on us using the BattleMech Construction Rules in lieu of the Field Modification Rules, please have a look through my posting history; I've done so on a number of occasions. However, it has little to do with the discussion on ECM and LRMs and I'll refrain from doing so here.

The point stands though. LRMs could be fired indirectly without any additional equipment, and ECM was a counter to Artemis and Narc, not to LRMs in general.

[ramjb]

stjobe, on 15 September 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

If you want me to go off on a tangent on us using the BattleMech Construction Rules in lieu of the Field Modification Rules, please have a look through my posting history; I've done so on a number of occasions. However, it has little to do with the discussion on ECM and LRMs and I'll refrain from doing so here.

It has a lot to do with the discussion on ECM and LRMs. And is not that I want you to go off in a tangent, my question was a retoric one to reinforce my already stated point: You can't pull Lore explanations to define how innacurate ECM is while ignoring the fact that LRMs are as much, if not more, inaccurate, as ECM, and in several different ways. I.E. in lore ECM might not have been a hard conter vs missiles. But in lore Kintaros couldn't go into battle with almost 2000missiles. And I'm guessing Ullers would have an issue or two with carrying 1620. Which I've already seen in this game.

Regardless: I already stated that for me Lore has a very second rate importance. Gameplay comes first. I really understand those fans of the lore and the MW brand who are angry because ECM doesn't follow the lore. However I fail to see why ECM is the problem when so many things are innacurate lore-wise. Starting with the very weapon ECM is designed to counter in this game.

And even more important, and once again, lore is secondary to gameplay, given the -current- state of the game, And in the -current- state of the game, with ECM in it's current state, LRMs dominate a significant ammount of PUG battles to an extreme no other weapon comes close to. In the current state of the game, lore or not, you can't downgrade the effect of the only effective mean of keeping LRMs at bay. As simple as that.

Edited by ramjb, 15 September 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[ToriStark]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

And even more important, and once again, lore is secondary to gameplay, given the -current- state of the game, And in the -current- state of the game, with ECM in it's current state, LRMs dominate a significant ammount of PUG battles to an extreme no other weapon comes close to. In the current state of the game, lore or not, you can't downgrade the effect of the only effective mean of keeping LRMs at bay. As simple as that.

So~ u want ECM to remain its critical role for the teams victory?

[TimePeriod]

I tried to come up with a bunch of reasons why ECM is powerful but in the end I figured this:

ECM is brutal if your enemy is unable to respond to its presence.

As soon as the enemy knows you are there, you become a major target suddenly.

[ramjb]

ToriStark, on 15 September 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

So~ u want ECM to remain its critical role for the teams victory?

I'd rather have ECM keeping it's not-that-critical role for the teams victory (I've had several no-ecm-games today we won because the team worked together, and one of them I described in this same thread), than being under a constant, unstoppable, rain of LRM death. Yes.

Edited by ramjb, 15 September 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Mcgral18]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I'd rather have ECM keeping it's not-that-critical role for the teams victory (I've had several no-ecm-games today we won because the team worked together, and one of them I described in this same thread), than being under a constant, unstoppable, rain of LRM death. Yes.

Odd, I never take ECM, and I'm never under a constant LRM rain, unless I balls up.

Change Magic Jesus Box, change indirect fire.


OR give Magic Jesus Box the proper penalties it's supposed to have. 12 crit slots and 10 heat among those.

[ramjb]

Mcgral18, on 15 September 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Odd, I never take ECM, and I'm never under a constant LRM rain,

Glad for you. However, as your personal experiences widely differ from those of everyone else, what you experience has no importance.

[Mcgral18]

ramjb, on 15 September 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Glad for you. However, as your personal experiences widely differ from those of everyone else, what you experience has no importance.

.

Or, perhaps, you need to learn not to run into the open and cry about Lurms?


I see it done all the time, it's why I try not to let the PUGs take heavy mechs, it results in them dying miserably.

[Steel Claws]

I STILL don't understand all the crying about ECM.

1. It does nothing to stop someone from shooting direct fire at you.
2. It is disabled by a UAV.
3. It is disabled by a PPC hit - (though since PPCs are over nerfed they aren't used that much).
4. They are disabled by tag.
5. They are disabled by narc.
6. It is nullified by BAP or another ECM mech.

You want to fix something, make LRMs less effective when fired with no line of sight. The only reason you see so much ECM in the game is because the game has gone LRM heavy and they are boated too much. Otherwise it has little advantage at all.

[ramjb]

Mcgral18, on 15 September 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

.

Or, perhaps, you need to learn not to run into the open and cry about Lurms?


I see it done all the time, it's why I try not to let the PUGs take heavy mechs, it results in them dying miserably.

Of course the problem is me running into the open and crying. Maybe I'm not running into the open, you know. Maybe it's just that I'm locked into a fight. Maybe is because someone with the sensor range module is spotting beyond my own sensor range. Or maybe it's because after the LRMs have killed 5-6 of the team in an ongoing fight, my turn comes. GL finding cover when you're defending a position against an enemy push and you're forced to move, and there's no way to break LOS from the rushing enemies.

but we all know that you're the all-mighty, all-powerful, extremely-excellent LRM avoider and that for you LRMs aren't and will never be a problem while ECM massively impairs your gameplay. However, given your very singular condition of excellent and personal skill extraordinaire, that the rest of us common mortals don't share, again, as what you experience is extremely different from what the immense majority of players do, whatever you say is irrelevant.

Edited by ramjb, 15 September 2014 - 10:29 AM.