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Peiper's Plan For Ecm, Related Equipment, And Information Warfare (Scouts!)


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#1 Peiper

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 04:17 PM

This is my 1000th post and I'm going to make it a good one. Though I've lost much faith in the effectiveness of the forums, Russ's suggestion that PGI would consider looking into changing ECM has given me the hope that maybe, just maybe, my ideas would be heard. Yes, my proposal would change the way the game is played, but so has ECM dictated so many elements of gameplay and equipment, that there's no way to change ECM without changing how the game has been played. I apologize for the length of this post, but as I said, you can't change ECM and ignore how it would affect the rest of the game.

ECM was never meant to be a cloaking device, whereby the mech that uses it cannot be targeted at all. It is a hard counter to Artemis FCS, C3 computers (ala TAG), NARC, and BAP. It did have a 6 hex radius whereby all those electronics were affected similarly. In MWO it is an area cloaking device preventing lock on at all. The counters to ECM are paradoxically, NARC, C3 (tag), and BAP. My proposal reduced ECM to it's intended roll. I also propose other equipment added to the game, and changes to existing equipment.

Proposal:

ECM creates a 180 meter radius bubble of protection vs. enemy mechs armed with TAG, Artemis FCS, BAP, and NARC missile beacons. That equipment will not work if it touches, penetrates, or would normally see through the bubble. Enemies will still be able to lock on to them as normal, but they would not get the bonuses provided by those weapon systems. *

ECCM: The second mode of ECM is called ECCM, and it nullifies the closest ECM unit in range up to 180 meters. The affected unit would not know it was being countered unless it was armed with a BAP/AP. That player would know that his sensors were being affected.

* Weapons would still be able to lock on and fire as normal, but they would not get the bonuses. Example: Artemis FCS would not get additional missile hits on a mech equipped with ECM, the launcher would just function as a normal launcher.

Changes to other equipment due to changes in ECM:

Beagle Active Probe (and clan AP): In Battletech, a BAP allows for the detection of shut down and hidden mechs within 120 meters and 150 meters for clan mechs. And other than 'noticing' when it was being jammed by ECM, it didn't have a function. Because it's purpose was designed to detect HIDDEN mechs within a certain radius, I propose the BAP picks up the locations of mechs that are behind obstacles that would normal prevent lock on, similar to how seismic sensor works, but it works while the mech is moving. It would not provide locks to these mechs, but they would be seen even when standing still and/or shut down within 120 meters (or 150 meters for clan mechs). ECM would prevent this detection, but the BAP equipped mech would know it was being jammed.

Artemis FCS: Mechs who have a line of sight to their target, who are not nullified by ECM, would have a 'bonus to hit' the enemy mech, increasing the numbers of missiles that hit the enemy unit.

TAG: TAG's purpose in CBT is to call in artillery. I would propose that only TAG equipped mechs can call in artillery and air strikes. TAG would be available only to light and MAYBE fast medium mechs like Cicadas. TAG must be held on target until the rounds hit. No longer do you need red smoke. (Or perhaps, the Inner sphere version would drop red smoke, and the clan version would just be a thick laser beam.)

NARC: No change, except that when under ECM, Narc provides no bonuses to targeting. That is, normally NARC increases the amount of missiles that would hit a target when fired at it. ECM would take away the bonus, but not the lock on. NARC's would still call in missiles through the ECM bubble, but they would simply hit like a normal volley of missiles. Remember, ECM doesn't prevent targeting, but it is a counter to the BONUS to hit that the NARC provides

Command Console: In CBT, a command console was a second cockpit in a mech. It allowed for one mechwarrior to pilot the mech so the commander could concentrate on the battle. Obviously that won't work in MWO. I propose changing the purpose of the command console to be a 3 ton sensor suite that contains enough gear to create a bubble around the mech nullifying all the negative effects of electronics within the effected radius, which would be 120 meters. You don't want to be caught close to a command mech, because they WOULD see you. They could tell everyone within 120 meters that you're there, and provide them with targeting information. It would be a bubble of electronic invulnerability. (Why wouldn't I take this? It's 3 frackin' tons!) Inner Sphere mechs only.

C3: In MWO, the C3 computer is basically equipped to every mech on a team, providing targeting data to everyone. It was a defacto TAG, allowing one mech to use another mech's sensors to fire their weapons, improving weapon accuracy for the firing unit. It also allowed for the calling in of Arrow IV (ARTILLERY) for the rest of the unit. (Mechs that didn't have a C3 or TAG couldn't call in artillery.) Clan and IS mechs ALL have shared targeting data. I would say that because it takes no weight, it should not have the TAG ability built in, and from now on only TAG equipped units can call in artillery.

PPC's should have an effect similar to a static haze to ALL electronics when hitting a mech, it doesn't matter if the mech has ECM or not. The effect would mostly be cosmetic.

Lore based equipment additions:

Jammer Pods: In the novel Wolf Pack, a novel about the Wolfs Dragoon civil war, jammer pods were used, though not detailed. I propose we bring them into MWO to enhance role warfare.

Jammer Pods would be carried by scout mechs, and dropped onto the battlefield at their discretion. A Jammer Pod would nullify ALL sensors within a certain radius, let's say 180 meters, preventing targeting data to be passed by enemy OR friendly mechs within said radius. This pod would remain in effect for one minute and could be destroyed if found similarly to a UAV now, only it would be on the ground. (I envision a visual like the little campfire stove used to represent the centers of the bases back in early beta days.) The reload timer on this equipment would also be one minute, and the equipment would weigh one ton per four pods, and could only be equipped on 'scout' mechs like light mechs and fast mediums.

Apocryphal equipment:

UAV: UAV's are fun. They should stay in the game, but they do WEIGH something to carry. You can't just throw c-bills into the ether and have equipment appear like magic. A UAV launcher should weigh .5 tons. It would work similarly to what we have now. They should not be modules, because they don't represent a pilot's skill, the represent EQUIPMENT.

Proposed non-canon equipment ideal for MWO:

Tight Beam Electronic Disruptor (TBED): This appear visually similar to TAG, but have a different function. When the target of this beam, the enemy mech has its electronics completely overwhelmed. jammed, and cannot lock on to enemy targets, period. This equipment is one of the only pieces of equipment that overrides a command console, but it is dangerous to use. You must be within 500 meters of a mech to use it, but it is very powerful. It could be used against a sniper or fire support mech, rendering them ineffective, or it could break the invulnerable bubble provided by a command console. This would be available ONLY to CLAN mechs, as it is the only counter to command consoles.

ECCM Jammer Pod (ECCM-JP): This would work similarly to a NARC missile beacon. It would shoot out a projectile that would magnetically clamp onto the enemy mech and would overwhelm the electronics of said mech, preventing ECM, Artemis, BAP, and TAG. It would not affect command consoles. It should weigh 1 ton, and have an appropriate amount of ammunition.

Seismic Sensor Traps (SST): These would be dropped by scout mechs, and would activate when a mech walked within 90 meters of them and remain active for 2 minutes. They would provide seismic data to any friendly mech that wasn't jammed by other electronics like ECCM, Jammer Pods and the like. They wouldn't be detectable to the enemy, other than the visual. They would be destructible when noticed like the Jammer Pods. They could only be carried by scout mechs.

Smoke Bombs: Think Batman's smoke grenades or smoke launchers on tank turrets. It would blanket the immediate area in smoke, making it difficult for the enemy to target any mechs in that area (allowing the scout a better chance to get away). These would take a very minimal space/tonnage on the mech equipping them.

Module changes:
Artillery and airstrikes would be limited to those who have TAG equipped, and they'd have to choose between which service they could call in strikes from. (You are either an arty spotter or a forward air controller, not both.) If you want to charge for reloads via a consumable-like system, fine, but it should take space to carry.

UAV's take up physical space on a mech, and should not be a module. If you want to charge for reloads via a consumable-like system, fine, but it should take space to carry.

Artillery and Airstrikes no longer need to be limited to one shot per mech, as only certain mechs can equip TAG now. Also, artillery doesn't work logically in this game. They should be able to reload and fire again. Let's presume artillery is being fired by an MRLS battery. It fires it's rockets in quick succession, but requires time to reload all the tubes and fire again. Likewise, it takes time for an aircraft, dodging flack, SAMs and other aircraft to line up for another run. A mech that has artillery/air and TAG equipped can call in another target every 4 minutes, let's say – if they survive long enough to laze/TAG the area where the artillery/air should be called in.

Additional Artillery and Airstrike types: Smoke and E-Haze. Instead of calling in high explosive shells, a scout could choose a Smoke or E-Haze type strike. This would call in vision obscuring smoke which would linger on the affected area for a time. You could also equip 'electronic haze' rounds which would explode flack/chaff clouds (essentially shredded tinfoil) that would sparkle in the air for awhile, and blind all sensors, friend and foe for that period of time. Both would cause confusion in the enemy ranks. (Both would also effect friendly units, smoke/haze doesn't choose sides.)

Who could use what equipment?

All mechs could equip ECM, BAP, Artemis FCS, and NARC.

Command Consoles: According to Battletech rules, only heavy and assault inner sphere mechs could equip command consoles. I would consider further restricting this list to mechs that have been described in lore to have command consoles and/or dual cockpits. Examples being the Grand Dragon, Atlas, Battlemaster, Orion... and specifically restricting them from mechs that are purpose built for other things like Catapults and Stalkers (fire support), Jaggermechs (Anti-air), and bruisers (Annihilators).

Tight Beam Electronic Disruptors: Only Clan Scout mechs. (As of this writing, it would only include the Kit Fox.)

TAG, Jammer Pods, ECCM-Jammer Pods, Seismic Sensor Traps, UAV's, Smoke Bombs: This equipment would be restricted to mechs whose designed purpose is scouting, or are otherwise under-gunned. I'm thinking Ravens, Spiders, Cicadas, and Locusts, and Commandos. Mechs like the Jenner and Firestarter are skirmishers, and most medium mechs are as well.

Overall design theory:

My purpose in re-creating this set of equipment is to put role warfare into the game; specifically segregating the scout mechs from the rest of the mechs. The challenge and fun associated with using the suite of equipment available to scout mechs should drive interest and encourage people to play the role of a scout in both pug and team matches. ECM, and some gear would be brought down to a tabletop standard, but other equipment would be changed or created to fit within the structure and metagame of Mechwarrior Online. ECM is currently the single most powerful, ton-for-ton weapon in the game. It was kind of nice in Classic Battletech, but in MWO it is essential, and like Russ points out, is so powerful as to invalidate the use of many other mechs.
The biggest challenge in creating this plan was to find a way to REPLACE ECM in a way, because without the ECM we know, missiles could completely take over the game. My proposal makes good scouts ESSENTIAL for a 3-3-3-3 team to be successful. Scouts are given, through the plan above, the ability to really blind, frustrate, and confound the enemy. They are given equipment to help them survive detection and/or evade destruction. They are also the soul conveyers of artillery and air strikes. While scouts may not have as much room for weaponry should the equip all this equipment, they will have a great time in their dedicated roll (and should be amply rewarded for successful scouting through match scoring).

Addendum:
A note on Medium Mechs: Need lots of quirks. They are the backbone of most militaries, so something must be done to make them more attractive to play. If repair/rearm were in the game, they would be the most economical mechs to drive – is what I'm thinking, but barring that, something must be done to make them more fun – especially IS ones in light of the powerful Nova and Stormcrow additions.

Future equipment:
Angel ECM, Bloodhound Active Probe, Stealth Armor, IFF jammers like in MW4?

Edited by Peiper, 14 September 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#2 Teuf

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 04:38 PM

This is a detailed and informative post that should be considered for those parties responsible for the design influence of the game. There are no knee jerk reactions or emotional outbursts anywhere in it. Players coming into the game with these features will be better for it. This fixes force the pilot to become a better mechwarrior, which in turn makes the game better. Hopefully this post and others like it will not fall on deaf ears. Semper Fi!

#3 MajorFlack

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 04:41 PM

I like the ideas, would bring a very different characteristic to the game

#4 Reitrix

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 09:46 PM

I love the idea if an IFF jammer, but you need to do something about Team Kill penalties. Otherwise you could get a Light running in and jamming up a lights IFF, only for his friend to turn the corner and one shot him. He gets negative c-bills and will most likely be reported for team killing.

In a PuG that'd be a giant fustercluck, we've all seen people nuke friendlies right off the base when the IFF bug kicks in, even though theres no way an enemy could possibly have gotten there in 10 seconds, lol.

I do like the idea though >_>

#5 FatYak

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 10:10 PM

i dont think you can discuss ECM changes without LRM changes, as it is the only thing that prevents the indirect LRM spam that a lot of us encounter.

Indirect LRM fire when your not narced or tagged is bogus, ECM on your team is the only trade off for that as most people don't pack AMS.

When mechs eventually have to close in for direct fire, its absurb that it enables LRM spam from somewhere else that you can see nor counter merely because an aenemy mech has you in LOS

Until that gets addressed, leave ECM alone

#6 Peiper

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 10:51 PM

View PostFatYak, on 14 September 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

i dont think you can discuss ECM changes without LRM changes, as it is the only thing that prevents the indirect LRM spam that a lot of us encounter.

Indirect LRM fire when your not narced or tagged is bogus, ECM on your team is the only trade off for that as most people don't pack AMS.

When mechs eventually have to close in for direct fire, its absurb that it enables LRM spam from somewhere else that you can see nor counter merely because an aenemy mech has you in LOS

Until that gets addressed, leave ECM alone


1. TAG no longer affects targeting by or for friends. It's been retro-purposed for the bringing in of artillery and airstrikes ala tabletop.
2. Though I still allow NARC beacons to call in LRM's indirectly, the presence of ECM reduces it's effectiveness so that it's no better than LRM's fired indirectly. Though this is not exactly like tabletop, it still allows for NARC to have a function in game.
3. Though the mechanics of LRM's wouldn't be affected in my proposal, there are still many counters for getting nailed by them. NARC, TAG, or whatever used to bring missiles in on a target is still nullified by the presence of multiple AMS's. I've fired many volleys of missiles where I see my missiles completely disappear on the way to the target now. This has nothing to do with ECM or any missile buffs. It is simply AMS. I think if they can't rely on ECM to create a cloaking bubble around their mech, many players will elect to add AMS to their mechs.

FatYak, you're making the same mistake the Devs have made over the last couple years via ECM. You're thinking INSIDE THE BOX.

#7 FatYak

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 10:59 PM

AMS is a ton and a half of not very useful, they wont run it, they will take radar dep and a small mech

shared targeting needs to go other than tag / narc

im sick of losing matrches because 4-6 players cant die to lumrs in the first 3 minutes, leaving the rest to get smashed. its game breaking for many of us, especially in time zines where we have high ping and boating lurms is the easy was around terrible HSR and hit reg

#8 Greziz

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 09:28 AM

HOW DARE YOU LIE! I see you only have 997 posts!

On a somewhat serious note this seems very very thought out but would be a crippling amount of programming and rework for the devs so I can't see it being done outside of picking a snippet here or there and I feel like without the whole suite it would feel half assed and worse than it is now.

#9 Peiper

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 02:13 AM

View PostGreziz, on 15 September 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

HOW DARE YOU LIE! I see you only have 997 posts!

On a somewhat serious note this seems very very thought out but would be a crippling amount of programming and rework for the devs so I can't see it being done outside of picking a snippet here or there and I feel like without the whole suite it would feel half assed and worse than it is now.


My profile page said 1000 posts. I don't know why my banner here says some different number, except maybe my profile counts hidden posts, and the number you see here are the ones that weren't.

As far as my fix for ECM and the amount of work it would take, I agree, it would take a bunch of work, and I honestly don't see that work being done before or during CW development. It's a rework of the whole information warfare system. If Russ and friends are serious about honoring tabletop, this solution, I believe, would let them. Though I did add a few non-canonical elements, I believe that its better to add some stuff than it is to change canon equipment - and really, all that extra equipment, I believe, would make piloting a scout mech an absolute blast, and a necessity. I also see the return of light-hunting medium mechs to help keep those tricksy lights from getting too close.

I admit, the one tactic I don't see this curing is the simple deathball. Perhaps adding mines, and Thunder LRMs (FASCAM) could help slow the headlong rushes and prevent the game from becoming all brawl.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_LRM

On a lazy note:
There is a very simple thing they can do with ECM that would improve the game a lot. Only give 'scout' type mechs ECM. If they're going to give it to any other mechs, give it to the crappier ones like the Dragon, Puma, Awesome, Quickdraw, Thor, etc. But if a mech is really viable and played for it's other virtues, it does not need ECM as well.

I think one scary prospect we have, though is 3 clan mechs coming out soon - which includes the LOKI prime - that have ECM. The Loki can (probably) arm dual LBX20's in the arms, is fast, and has ECM. Who would ever pilot a Jagger or K2 again?

ECM is the single most powerful weapon, ton for ton, in the game. Every team I'm in, once we hit 4 or more players, we begin to see who's gonna bite the bullet and run an ECM mech. Many of my guys don't even like the ECM equipped chassis. It's like passing the clap around to whoever has to pilot it. But we see it as a necessary evil, and that's just stupid. ECM was never meant to be more than a counter to other equipment - never to cloak a mech, or prevent locks.

Edited by Peiper, 16 September 2014 - 02:16 AM.


#10 N0MAD

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:20 PM

OP you dont pilot Lights by chance?, relevant question to me.

#11 Peiper

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:14 PM

View PostN0MAD, on 16 September 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

OP you dont pilot Lights by chance?, relevant question to me.


I pilot all mech classes. A Trueborn warrior must be adept at any task given to him, lest he be found lacking in an unexpected trial. I have thousands of drops under my belt. Cross-training is necessary for any unit to be successful. A player can not be a good team player if he does not understand what it is like to pilot other mechs, the struggles and challenges they have to go through, and how to support them and each other. Otherwise you have missile boats pilots screaming the scouts are not getting them targets, and the scouts, when they do get targets, are well outside of the thousand yard range of the missile carriers.

As far as what I prefer to pilot, I admit when I pilot lights, I prefer my Ember and Sarah. Skirmishing is a blast. I do not enjoy scouting much at all - though I am happy to do it from time to time for my team. Those scouts I do have in my unit, though, love scouting. Think how much fun scouting could be if your primary purpose was to both blind and confuse the enemy, while providing intel to your team, and doing so at the risk of exposing yourself to a couple Dire Wolfs armed with a dozen with LBX autocannons between them!

I am guessing your question pertains to whether I PREFER lights, or have a bias for or against them? I do not prefer lights, and I do not have a bias against them. It would seem my proposals do not take into account the other weight classes, other than command mechs. That is true. I do know that with so many frustrating goodies I am offering for lights, that this would make skilled light pilots powerful, and very important for any team to have. I do know that mediums would have more of a reason to take anti-light mech/skirmisher weapons, which I believe would give them more of a role. I do know that some firepower on all mechs, especially heavier ones, would be cut down by mechs taking ECM and AMS, but the giants losing a little firepower for defensive weapons can not be a bad thing. But I also know that I am making many changes that affect lights more than anything, and I could see why you would be looking for bias in my plan.

This overall proposal would bring a whole new level, and dynamic to the game in terms of variety - and it would really make information warfare something real. Think of how effective smoke and E-haze rounds (artillery types) would be on a map like river city! There are many possibilities opened up here that currently are not in the game, and that would not work with the Romulan Area Cloaking Device (ECM) that we have now.

I also believe that light/scout pilots do not get the rewards they deserve in this game. Spotting assists, half the damage caused by mechs using a scouts tag, narc, UAV, etc... should be rewarded not to the firing mech, but the mech that provided the data to that mech. More simply, I actually believe that all damage and kill experience should be divided evenly among the team. This would encourage teamwork, rather than hot dogging. I was watching a pilot shoot at a disarmed Atlas for many seconds, while fully armed mechs were trashing his teammates BEHIND the Atlas where HE COULD SEE THEM. But he wanted that kill, that xp, that c-bill reward. The team rewards hot dogging more than teamwork, and that needs to change.

So, Nomad, what do you think? Do you pilot lights? Do you prefer lights, why or why not? How do you think my proposals would affect gameplay for the better or worse? Do my ideas sound like fun? Do you understand all my proposals? Does anything confuse you?

Edited by Peiper, 17 September 2014 - 09:21 PM.


#12 Kamikaze uy

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:32 AM

Well I guess I don´t agree on nerfing ECM so much, if I understood u correctly.
I think the cloaking ability is fine but it shouldn´t work on the hole bubble but only on the mech carrying ECM. This is apart from the bonuses you already detailed.
Also only ECM mechs can carry them, not every one.

The rest seems very interesting though I don´t think its necesary to add tonnage on UAVs, would you add tonnage on coolant too? Seismic sensor? Maybe then...or u could assume not taking a module will free up 0,5T. Not worth the trouble...though this is a minor thing.

What u r proposing with ECM is too drastic, affecting lots of already balanced chassis and mechs. Though I would gladly do it if you take into account what I said above, and also missiles will have to be nerfed if we r still using C3 computers on every mech...

Great discussion Peiper! And great job.

#13 Peiper

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:51 PM

View PostKamikaze uy, on 19 September 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well I guess I don´t agree on nerfing ECM so much, if I understood u correctly.
I think the cloaking ability is fine but it shouldn´t work on the hole bubble but only on the mech carrying ECM. This is apart from the bonuses you already detailed.
Also only ECM mechs can carry them, not every one.

The rest seems very interesting though I don´t think its necesary to add tonnage on UAVs, would you add tonnage on coolant too? Seismic sensor? Maybe then...or u could assume not taking a module will free up 0,5T. Not worth the trouble...though this is a minor thing.

What u r proposing with ECM is too drastic, affecting lots of already balanced chassis and mechs. Though I would gladly do it if you take into account what I said above, and also missiles will have to be nerfed if we r still using C3 computers on every mech...

Great discussion Peiper! And great job.


I did not talk about coolant, because it didn't fit with the whole information warfare stuff, but yeah, if there is some sort of coolant flush system (and I don't think it should be in the game at all) then it SHOULD be equipment, and it should take up space. None of this throwing money into the ether and the hand of god removes your heat. What a crock of shizzle!

Seismic sensor, well, I don't remember where I've seen it in lore, but I do remember it. I don't think it was a piece of special equipment, rather something built into the normal sensor suite the mech is equipped with. However, it wasn't something everyone knew how to use, or thought to use it, so it would be one of those modules that showed a pilot was particularly skilled at running the system while in combat - which seems like a feat!

As you suggest, simply, if the ECM bubble was removed, that would be a simple fix I could live with. There's going to be a faster light Clan mech with ECM soon, along with the Loki, which is a fast heavy mech.

I am not sure missiles will have to be changed at all. Right now, if you're caught out of the ECM bubble, you get pasted. If you're in it, you don't. My proposal gives all mechs the option for my normalized ECM, and if you're really worried, take AMS. Join a team where everyone takes ams and uses cover appropriately, and you'll have a better survival chance. Plus, consider all the equipment I am offering the scouts. They can use stuff to help blind enemy mechs trying to target their teammates. My proposal makes the game more of a thinking man's game, with a lot of options, that when used right, will do what ECM currently does - but requires some skilled light pilots to do so. (Hopefully the game will award them for their hard work, too, with Cbills and XP.) Thanks for the feedback, Kamikaze!





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