20 replies to this topic

[Chemie]

Starting with the hardest is never a good first step. Asking to balance ECM or ghost heat, the two most disagreed topics, is hardly the way to kick off better developer/community dialog.

So how about we implement things everyone can agree on. Here is my list:

1. Revisit JJ nerf, especially for mediums lights
2. Revisit leg damage, especially for mediums lights

For these two, it is about role warefare. Lights/mediums have less armor and firepower....isn't that enough? Why nerf the only thing they did have ; MOBILITY. Please give my lights there mobility back (non JJ lights are especially hurt with leg damage; why force non JJ lights to run only where assaults run?)

3. AC2. Revert. No ghost heat and 0.5 rate of fire. Your telemetry will confirm AC2 is never used so why not fix? The AC2 mech was a specialized role with big down side (you have to be exposed for long times). Just fix it.

4. HGN/Victor. Unnerf. They have been relegated to the unseen. IS assault/heavy will need buffs to complete against direwolfs and timberwolfs so why not start here?

I am sure others have thing to add. But Russ, why not start with the easy before the hard? The only explanation I have is you want it to fail so you can say "see, we know best". Instead, I hope I am wrong and you really want a dialogue with the players, who I believe can add something.

[El Bandito]

You are being incredibly naive.


1. Russ had stated that he is only willing to listen to ECM feedback ATM. Talking about other issues is fine, but it will most likely to be a waste of breath.

2. All of your points above will bring a lot of disagreements among the forumers. There is no one balance issue that the community can all (or even overwhelming majority) agree on.


For example: I can agree with AC2 GH removal but I cannot agree with 0.5 CD revert--it will make the gun to have too much DPS per ton.

I can agree with HGN and VTR mobility buff but I will not agree to let them have the old value--old VTR was as agile as the Dragon while DPSing and tanking better.

JJ nerfs are negligible on Lights and even some Mediums. It is the Heavies and Assaults that need JJ buff.


See how complicated it already has become? And you are just talking to one person.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 15 September 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

2. All of your points will bring a lot of disagreements among the forumers. There is no one balance issue that the community can all agree on.

I can agree with this though!

[Selbatrim]

We all love mechs.

[Kiiyor]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 September 2014 - 03:44 AM, said:

I can agree with this though!

[PhoenixFire55]

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

So how about we implement things everyone can agree on.

There isn't a single topic everyone can agree on over here...

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

1. Revisit JJ nerf, especially for mediums lights

Yes. One JJ is currently useless on Heavy/Assault. It should also be useless on a Medium/Light. Canon light builds use 6-8 JJs, needs to be adjusted here the same way. Does it however benefit the game balance? Or is it even what you meant yourself?

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

2. Revisit leg damage, especially for mediums lights

For these two, it is about role warefare. Lights/mediums have less armor and firepower....isn't that enough? Why nerf the only thing they did have ; MOBILITY. Please give my lights there mobility back (non JJ lights are especially hurt with leg damage; why force non JJ lights to run only where assaults run?)

Mechs were never meant to fly. Not in this game. I run lights and mediums a lot and I hardly ever have any trouble in terms of mobility, jumping over terrain, etc. Cushioning your landing with JJs became obligatory, yes, but thats a good thing. If you don't have JJs, then you are handicapped compared to JJ'ing mechs the way it is supposed to be. Plan your 'descent' from wherever you climbed into accordingly.

Terrain management in this game hardly makes any sense. Atlas falls down from a 1m high rock and takes leg damage. Or stumbles upon a tiny little car in RiverCity and stops moving. Or a light moving at 150kph crashes full speed into a building and nothing happens. How about 20 points of damage into CT?

Also, does taking ARMOR damage from falling make any sense to you in the first place? Why not INTERNAL damage right away?

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

3. AC2. Revert. No ghost heat and 0.5 rate of fire. Your telemetry will confirm AC2 is never used so why not fix? The AC2 mech was a specialized role with big down side (you have to be exposed for long times). Just fix it.

Range revision, yes. Ghost heat revision, no. Not until macros are officially forbidden.

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

4. HGN/Victor. Unnerf. They have been relegated to the unseen. IS assault/heavy will need buffs to complete against direwolfs and timberwolfs so why not start here?

IS mechs (no matter the class) were never supposed to be (at this point of time) anywhere near as good as clan mechs. With current IS mechs implementation (fully customized) compared to clan mechs implementation (fixed ES/FF, engine), its the clan mechs that are already nerfed beyond belief.

HGL/VTR nerfs were just a poor lazy bandaid to "fix" the poptart meta that was born by perfect instant convergence. Buffing/nerfing a certain mech/weapon is not the proper way to find balance. Some core elements of the game have to be changed and proper balance will establish itself.

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

I am sure others have thing to add. But Russ, why not start with the easy before the hard? The only explanation I have is you want it to fail so you can say "see, we know best". Instead, I hope I am wrong and you really want a dialogue with the players, who I believe can add something.

As you've seen we can't agree even on what you think is "easy". The "See we know best" approach, or "You are on an island" approach or even "Total ignore" approach aren't what we need from PGI, but apparently "We all agree on this and that" isn't working either. Thats why the idea of a "player council" might be worth a try. Much like any expert council, as long as they actually have any power to influence the decisions regarding game development, it can work.

[DocBach]

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2435429

93% of people who voted on this agreed with it... Can Russ have it implemented now?

[Duke Nedo]

Be nice... the guy has a point imo. Ecm is the big one... then, if you turn it around, we should be happy that we are allowed to have an opionion about something as important as ecm!

I agree with the original 1-3, but like mr Bandito said maybe a lil more careful on the ac2 dps. For JJ's my flavour would be more or less to keep lift as it is, but greatly reduce leg damage for lights and mediums and increase burn time for heavies/assaults and add a lil bit of lift so that they can do slightly more than hover but it would take some time to get there.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Chemie, on 15 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

Starting with the hardest is never a good first step. Asking to balance ECM or ghost heat, the two most disagreed topics, is hardly the way to kick off better developer/community dialog.

So how about we implement things everyone can agree on. Here is my list:

1. Revisit JJ nerf, especially for mediums lights
2. Revisit leg damage, especially for mediums lights

For these two, it is about role warefare. Lights/mediums have less armor and firepower....isn't that enough? Why nerf the only thing they did have ; MOBILITY. Please give my lights there mobility back (non JJ lights are especially hurt with leg damage; why force non JJ lights to run only where assaults run?)

3. AC2. Revert. No ghost heat and 0.5 rate of fire. Your telemetry will confirm AC2 is never used so why not fix? The AC2 mech was a specialized role with big down side (you have to be exposed for long times). Just fix it.

4. HGN/Victor. Unnerf. They have been relegated to the unseen. IS assault/heavy will need buffs to complete against direwolfs and timberwolfs so why not start here?

I am sure others have thing to add. But Russ, why not start with the easy before the hard? The only explanation I have is you want it to fail so you can say "see, we know best". Instead, I hope I am wrong and you really want a dialogue with the players, who I believe can add something.

First, I totally agree JJ need addressed but not because of light mechs because honestly, they are hardly effected by the changes. However jump capable mediums, heavies and assaults are darn near worthless. All they can use JJs for is to hop around a bit and that is not why I spent 6750 MC on the Heavy Metal, I bought it because it could actually jump.

Leg damage is really a non-issue if you know how to use JJs correctly. Sure it takes practice and skill but it isn't that hard to learn how to feather your JJs and come in for a safe landing. Those currently suffering Leg damage issues are really just to lazy to learn the skills.

I can also get behind the reversions to the Victor (HGN would be fixed by a JJ reversion). To be honest I don't know why they were nerfed in the first place. The Victor was good but not that good and as is right now, barely competitive especially against the Clan mechs.

[DocBach]

Viktor Drake, on 15 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

I can also get behind the reversions to the Victor (HGN would be fixed by a JJ reversion). To be honest I don't know why they were nerfed in the first place. The Victor was good but not that good and as is right now, barely competitive especially against the Clan mechs.

Yeah, a lot of mechs were nerfed before the clans were introduced to be balanced against other inner sphere mechs. Now that the clans are here, they definitely deserve a review pass.

[Joseph Mallan]

I am on record saying they didn't need nerfed. But did anyone listen to me?


Well did they?

[Tastian]

I for one am extremely happy I don't see too many poptarts. But, let's keep this on Russ's topic: ECM.

[Dolph Hoskins]

I am concerned with the outcome of just about anything the community debates on.

This whole council thing reminds me of the scene from The Lord of the Rings where the Ents spend a few days coming to the conclusion that Merry and Pippin are not orcs.

Or like the a local government spending months and millions of dollars to approve something like a foot bridge over a creek.

Everything is debatable, nothing is answerable.

Edited by The Ripper13, 15 September 2014 - 05:44 AM.

[Elizander]

While we are at it, can they also un-nerf my K2?

[El Bandito]

Elizander, on 15 September 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

While we are at it, can they also un-nerf my K2?

And fix Catapult A1, C1, C4 ears.

[MoonfireSpam]

Lol this or any other community won't agree on anything. Although hats off to PGI for resisting a lot of the retardation all over these forums. Thanks to that game is still funs to play (and actually more fun right now imo).

[Dracol]

PhoenixFire55, on 15 September 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Range revision, yes. Ghost heat revision, no. Not until macros are officially forbidden.

Don't need a macro to quick fire AC/2's. Thumb button has 1 AC on it, Left Mouse button as a second AC on it. Right mouse button as all three. Tap thumb, tap lmb, hold rmb and you have a continuous stream of AC/2 bullets.

Even with Ghost Heat, I still run my Dragon with trip AC/2s like that. Can't continuously fire, but I can usually get a good 5 second burst down range before I have to cool down. Usually enough to get an Atlas or Direwolf to back the F up.

[PhoenixFire55]

Dracol, on 15 September 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Don't need a macro to quick fire AC/2's. Thumb button has 1 AC on it, Left Mouse button as a second AC on it. Right mouse button as all three. Tap thumb, tap lmb, hold rmb and you have a continuous stream of AC/2 bullets.

Even with Ghost Heat, I still run my Dragon with trip AC/2s like that. Can't continuously fire, but I can usually get a good 5 second burst down range before I have to cool down. Usually enough to get an Atlas or Direwolf to back the F up.

3 was never a problem, 6 on the other hand... Plus, I don't mind if you actually do it with your fingers, thus investing some effort into it as compared to "press-button-for-relentless-cockpit-mega-shake".

Regardless, this was just an example.

[Why Run]

I respectfully disagree.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 September 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

I am on record saying they didn't need nerfed. But did anyone listen to me?


Well did they?

They did need something.

But not 20% everything nerfs, HoverJets™, PPC speed nerfs, and then the Dakka nerfs.

That's too much. Someone have that Smurfy quirk picture? A nice splot of red, negative quirks.

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 September 2014 - 06:43 AM.