24 replies to this topic

[HUBA]

Ghost heat is necessary for the game, ok it is not the best implementation and you can fine a more solid way to do this (e.g. Homeless-Bill or my idea). The worst about the current ghost heat is the inconsistent of penalties which punish 3 large laser or 7ML but allows 2LL+ 6ML. Also there is no safety function (or visual hints) so when I fire my 6CML and to soon 6CSL I'll rocket jump my heat to 300%. The good and absolutely necessary about it, it prevents (unfortunately not consequent enough) high alpha damage. Even the AC40 got a good balance with it. You can fire both AC20 at the same time but only once. If you don't kill your opponent and have to shoot again you probably overheat.

What if we had no ghost heat. Then the most mechs become as dangerous as the dire whale and maybe the DW will be the least dangerous of them

There are also other ways to reduce pinpoint and prevent high alpha damage but without a compensation for the actual ghost heat the game will just break when you remove the ghost heat.

TLDR: Ghost heat is not the best but without it would be worse

[Tastian]

I have to agree. Ghost Heat is not the best answer to a problem but its an answer that works:

Does anyone remember 4 and 6 PPC Stalkers? AC40 Jagers in every match (you still see them of course but they aren't as bad)? SRM36 cats?

Speaking of which, how quickly those who want jump jets back to their glory days forget poptarts.

[Xtrekker]

I think I suggested once that each weapon include a power minimum requirement, and give each mech a max power output based on chassis, quirks, etc. Kind of a way of implementing a hardpoint size system without actually limiting the hardpoints. Too much draw could damage the weapon due to, I dunno, low amps or something. Seems to make sense to me.

At least I think that is better than just some arbitrary number with no real sound reasoning behind it.

[Lexx]

Pehaps PGI should reduce the heat on clan energy weapons and give them different ghost heat numbers. I used to think clans were OP, but the heat nerfs to clan lasers just went to far. Especially making the clan medium pulse laser having the same heat as the ER medium laser. What's up with that?

I feel they should lower the heat on clan lasers, but give them more ghost heat when you fire a lot of them at once.

Edited by Lexx, 15 September 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[EboneezeeR]

HUBA, on 15 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ghost heat is necessary for the game, ok it is not the best implementation and you can fine a more solid way to do this (e.g. Homeless-Bill or my idea). The worst about the current ghost heat is the inconsistent of penalties which punish 3 large laser or 7ML but allows 2LL+ 6ML. Also there is no safety function (or visual hints) so when I fire my 6CML and to soon 6CSL I'll rocket jump my heat to 300%. The good and absolutely necessary about it, it prevents (unfortunately not consequent enough) high alpha damage. Even the AC40 got a good balance with it. You can fire both AC20 at the same time but only once. If you don't kill your opponent and have to shoot again you probably overheat.

What if we had no ghost heat. Then the most mechs become as dangerous as the dire whale and maybe the DW will be the least dangerous of them

There are also other ways to reduce pinpoint and prevent high alpha damage but without a compensation for the actual ghost heat the game will just break when you remove the ghost heat.

TLDR: Ghost heat is not the best but without it would be worse

TLDR...

Dude you are sick. Just tell me... does in Battletech series books was any single mech affected by Ghost Heat? Nope.
So... GH must be striken frome the game and also collision damage muts be returned.

[Carrie Harder]

No.

[Bacl]

The whale without ghost heat would be the most dangerous of all, Twin Ultra AC20, 6 LPL alphas and this is my favorite; , could use this without blowing up after 2 shots.

I am against ghost heat and it needs to go but clans do need some kind of limitation because their alpha potential is simply insane.

[Kraven Kor]

I just think there has to be a better way that is easier for new / casual players to wrap their head around, without having to dig through build advice.

It isn't exactly Ghost Heat itself most take issue with; its that there is no warning about it, particularly on stock mech loadouts like the HBK-4P or the 12x CERML Nova.

We just believe there are other, better, more elegant, more lore-friendly ways of dealing with boating.

[Savage Wolf]

EboneezeeR, on 15 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

TLDR...

Dude you are sick. Just tell me... does in Battletech series books was any single mech affected by Ghost Heat? Nope.
So... GH must be striken frome the game and also collision damage muts be returned.

Dude, this is a game that needs to be fun. If that requires a little tweak to the lore, so be it. Better than just playing a game that which gameplay sucks just because lore demands it.

I do BTW also agree with alot of people that something better could hopefully replace it. Something more simple and easy to learn. But whatever it'll be, it will not fit into lore, but there is no way around that.

[BlakeAteIt]

Maybe if the ECM thing goes well, we can get a community thing going on ghost heat. Till that's over one way or another though, not much reason to worry about it.

[IceSerpent]

HUBA, on 15 September 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Ghost heat is necessary for the game, ok it is not the best implementation and you can fine a more solid way to do this (e.g. Homeless-Bill or my idea). The worst about the current ghost heat is the inconsistent of penalties which punish 3 large laser or 7ML but allows 2LL+ 6ML. Also there is no safety function (or visual hints) so when I fire my 6CML and to soon 6CSL I'll rocket jump my heat to 300%. The good and absolutely necessary about it, it prevents (unfortunately not consequent enough) high alpha damage. Even the AC40 got a good balance with it. You can fire both AC20 at the same time but only once. If you don't kill your opponent and have to shoot again you probably overheat.

First of all, ghost heat does absolutely nothing to prevent high alpha damage - AC20 + 6 ML has no ghost heat and higher alpha than 2 x AC20. It does prevent high pin-point damage, but the fact that "(too) high PP damage" exsits at all is merely an indicator of messed up weapon balance. Balancing weapons is a much better fix than having bandaids like ghost heat.

Quote

What if we had no ghost heat. Then the most mechs become as dangerous as the dire whale and maybe the DW will be the least dangerous of them

If we just had GH removed - yes, we would have a problem. If we had GH removed and had balance issues fixed, we would have a much better game. I don't recall anybody asking PGI to "remove ghost heat and leave everything else as-is".

[Bhael Fire]

It's the overly (seemingly) arbitrary and convoluted nature of ghost heat that many players have issues with.

There are far more elegant and easier to understand methods that could be implemented that would be just as effective.

[Mcgral18]

Bacl, on 15 September 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

The whale without ghost heat would be the most dangerous of all, Twin Ultra AC20, 6 LPL alphas and this is my favorite; , could use this without blowing up after 2 shots.

I am against ghost heat and it needs to go but clans do need some kind of limitation because their alpha potential is simply insane.

If PGI had a half decent heat system, no, you could not.

60 heat instantly would melt you. 70 with the UACs. Not even MW4 could handle that.

[carl kerensky]

EboneezeeR, on 15 September 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

TLDR...

Dude you are sick. Just tell me... does in Battletech series books was any single mech affected by Ghost Heat? Nope.
So... GH must be striken frome the game and also collision damage muts be returned.

Yes

[John MatriX82]

Just restrict the hardpoints. Dynamically.

A Stalker has 6 energy hardpoints, comes stock with 2xLLs and 4xMLs. To me it means 4+4=8 energy crit slots.

This means.. oh well, 2PPCs+2MLs at maximum (who cares, the remaining hardpoints run out of available crit space so you can't load them). Or 4LLs, or 6MLs+1LL.

Missiles? Back in CB/OB there weren't dynamic missile tubes.. Stalkers came with 2xLRM10 and 2xSRM6s. It means 32 tubes.. in my books it means you can drop in only 2xLRM10+2xLRM5s. Or 4 SRM6s. No more multiple LRM salvo firing.. it would be rather easy, still allowing to move stuff around if you have multiple hardpoints of the same kind.

Missiles would be balanced because few mechs could reach 50 tubes, so 50LRMs.. but.. whatever. I shouldn't be even post it here, ghost heat is evil, it still allows you to mount 6PPCs on a Stalker but you can't fire them. I prefer something that prevents me to mount impossible stuff rather than risking to blow myself up with undocumented rules that you can only find reading them on this forum or on smurfy..

[Dracol]

John MatriX82, on 15 September 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Just restrict the hardpoints. Dynamically.

Um, not thanks. I'll take ghost heat over any restrictions to hard points. Current MW:O mech constructions are limited compared to what you could build in TT , but at least there are more options than MW4.

John MatriX82, on 15 September 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I prefer something that prevents me to mount impossible stuff rather than risking to blow myself up with undocumented rules that you can only find reading them on this forum or on smurfy..

Or found in the yellow triangle on the bottom right of your mech load out in MW:O

[Tombstoner]

Savage Wolf, on 15 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Dude, this is a game that needs to be fun. If that requires a little tweak to the lore, so be it. Better than just playing a game that which gameplay sucks just because lore demands it.

I do BTW also agree with alot of people that something better could hopefully replace it. Something more simple and easy to learn. But whatever it'll be, it will not fit into lore, but there is no way around that.

Except that the DEV's changed the heat system for there own designs without understanding the implications/interactions as well as a veteran BT/MW nerd....

Then needed to fix it and alienated many core BT/MW fans. there is a clear connection between that and money generated sight unseen with the founders and then with the clans.

[EboneezeeR]

Bacl, on 15 September 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

The whale without ghost heat would be the most dangerous of all, Twin Ultra AC20, 6 LPL alphas and this is my favorite; , could use this without blowing up after 2 shots.

I am against ghost heat and it needs to go but clans do need some kind of limitation because their alpha potential is simply insane.

Wrong description... this is 7-8 C-PPC build... same can be done on BLR-3M. But I didn't told you that.

[KraftySOT]

No. Ghost Heat is freaking horrible.

And you jerks keep saying "Staying true to the lore will make the game not fun" yet...none of you, or me, or anyone, has played a game that is closely tied to the lore.

How do you know? Wheres you evidence? Wheres your lengthy well thought article detailing how those features arent fun? They dont exist so itd be hard to do.

Then theres the fact, that the most lore friendly game so far, was Mech 2: Mercs...which was the highest selling of the entire series.

So.

What were you saying again?

Good lord.

And 8 clan PPCs is 120 heat.

If this were lore friendly, you done killed yourself with that alpha. Its impossible. 4 PPCs on the Warhawk is to much for 40 heat dissipation.

Where you people come up with this stuff is completely unknown to all us purists and TT players.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tastian, on 15 September 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

I have to agree. Ghost Heat is not the best answer to a problem but its an answer that works:

Does anyone remember 4 and 6 PPC Stalkers? AC40 Jagers in every match (you still see them of course but they aren't as bad)? SRM36 cats?

Speaking of which, how quickly those who want jump jets back to their glory days forget poptarts.

4/6 PPC Stalkers existed in an era of low PPC heat...all PGI had to do was raise PPC/ERPPC heat back to TT values but they conveniently ignored the issue for like 9 months.

AC40s are not that scary unless you get ambushed with the ballistic range reduction that happened.

Splatcats? Lol...try running one nowadays. Hint...it's your ears getting shot off, not ghost heat that will get you killed.

Poptarts were only truly dangerous in the hands of some elite pilots.

Ironically, I'd love to see all of those mechs have a place on the battlefield...the mechs commonly fielded, right before the Clans dropped, were getting pretty stale.