116 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Reading lots of posts about how people do not want ECM changed for various reasons.
Chief among them is:
It is my shield against (overpowered) LRMs.
I do not think it is a priority.

Both of these concerns have some merit, but so does (I think) the binary relationship with basic LRMs. (ECM shuts off LRM usage unless they carry extra gear to make them work)

In light of that, I think the most profound change, that is yet simple in nature, to move it closer to balance is this:

Target Sharing Disruption.

ECM would block target sharing but not Line of Sight targeting and missile locks.

What this means:
If you are in your mech that has LRM tubes as part of its load-out, you would be able to shoot your LRMs at an enemy ECM mech if you personally can see it.
If you are in a mech with LRMs and you are not in Line of Sight (behind cover or blocked by terrain) and one of your allies sees the ECM mech, the target data (red box) is not transferred to you. You cannot see the ECM mech from your buddy's target sharing. (Much as it is now.)

That would be the only change. It would allow basic LRMs to be used in an ECM environment, in a direct fire capacity, but not in indirect fire capacity. It would allow ECM to maintain somewhat of the stealth capability by continuing to shield the ECM mech from having its position broadcast to everyone on the enemy team. Only the mechs that have LoS will see the "dorito." (TAG and Narc would still effect as they do now in order to allow Indirect fire LRMs.)



If I had to put the change net effect in one sentence:

"It will still be stealth against anyone who cannot directly see it on their screens."


Thoughts?

[Joseph Mallan]

Solid view and suggestion Live.

[Zoid]

Basically they just need to add a "target under reticle" button like we had in MW4. You couldn't pick up someone on radar who was either in passive mode or with ECM, but you could target them if you could see them. It's really kind of silly how it works now with LRMs, I ran into a Stalker in the open while in my D-DC the other day and he was packing LRMs and Medium Lasers. I just stayed at 500m and there was nothing he could do about it.

Alternately, I'd like to see a TAG laser changed to be equipment like the BAP and not require an energy hardpoint. If you're trying not to run a pure missile boat then those energy hardpoints are precious. It would accomplish the same goal in that it would make it so you had to be within 750m and have line of sight to use the LRMs.

[theta123]

Zoid, on 16 September 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Basically they just need to add a "target under reticle" button like we had in MW4. You couldn't pick up someone on radar who was either in passive mode or with ECM, but you could target them if you could see them. It's really kind of silly how it works now with LRMs, I ran into a Stalker in the open while in my D-DC the other day and he was packing LRMs and Medium Lasers. I just stayed at 500m and there was nothing he could do about it.

Alternately, I'd like to see a TAG laser changed to be equipment like the BAP and not require an energy hardpoint. If you're trying not to run a pure missile boat then those energy hardpoints are precious. It would accomplish the same goal in that it would make it so you had to be within 750m and have line of sight to use the LRMs.

Sounds like a good idea with the TAG

[Gwaihir]

Yea, that's pretty decent. That's why I like splitting out the "Stealth/hampered targeting" mode from the "Make missiles less good" mode. Pick one or the other, you don't get both all the time. You can run ghost mode and get safety from indirect fire, and in return be more vulnerable to direct fire, or use normal ECM mode and reduce missile effectiveness, but be vulnerable to indirect fire. It's not an all or nothing like it is now.

[Kiiyor]

I... Really support this.

Maybe it would encourage LURM boats to risk themselves more at the front lines, to at least look you in the eyes as they fill you with cheese.

In my mind, it's simple to engineer too.

The only issue I have is that it is a useful survival and scouting tool for lights. Maybe detection at extreme ranges could be lowered? I hate to take a decent suggestion and open more argument, but I always worry about changes that affect lighter mechs.

[Livewyr]

Just trying to keep it simple, yet change the most overpowering aspect of ECM.

[Khobai]

This idea defeats the entire purpose of LRMs which is indirect fire. If LRMs cant indirect fire theres really no point in using them over other weapons.

A better idea is to make ECM a soft counter to LRMs rather than a hard counter. And then weaken indirect LRMs just enough so that they no longer need a hard counter to be balanced. For 1.5 tons its completely ridiculous for ECM to hard counter anything.

Edited by Khobai, 16 September 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Livewyr]

Kiiyor, on 16 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I... Really support this.

Maybe it would encourage LURM boats to risk themselves more at the front lines, to at least look you in the eyes as they fill you with cheese.

In my mind, it's simple to engineer too.

The only issue I have is that it is a useful survival and scouting tool for lights. Maybe detection at extreme ranges could be lowered? I hate to take a decent suggestion and open more argument, but I always worry about changes that affect lighter mechs.

Could do more about that later if it get to it.. but as we have seen, it is tough getting support changes at all. (Besides, there are several light mechs (namely the Jenners and Firestarters) that do well despite lacking a stealth crutch.

Khobai, on 16 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

This idea defeats the entire purpose of LRMs which is indirect fire. If LRMs cant indirect fire theres really no point in using them over other weapons.

A better idea is to make ECM a soft counter to LRMs rather than a hard counter. And then weaken indirect LRMs just enough so that they no longer need a hard counter.

You can still use all the ways we have to use now to do any fire, as ways to do Indirect Fire. (And that is only in the ECM environment.)

(Btw: this IS a "soft counter" it counters ONE aspect of LRM usage, not all of it.)

---------------------------------
As much as I want to change LRMs, that is for a future effort/discussion.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 September 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Tastian]

Khobai, on 16 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

This idea defeats the entire purpose of LRMs which is indirect fire. If LRMs cant indirect fire theres really no point in using them over other weapons.

A better idea is to make ECM a soft counter to LRMs rather than a hard counter. And then weaken indirect LRMs just enough so that they no longer need a hard counter to be balanced.

This doesn't affect indirect fire of LRMs at all. Yes, you lose the ability to fire at ECM mechs indirectly just like now. But you can still fire LRMs indirectly at mechs without ECM. You actually gain the locking ability to fire at ECM mechs you can see (which you cannot do now).

This is a simple but grand change to ECM IMHO.

[Dutch Bear]

Can't an LRM boat shoot their LRM's without a lock? They go to where the retical was when the trigger was pulled just like other weapons...

[Joseph Mallan]

Kiiyor, on 16 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

I... Really support this.

Maybe it would encourage LURM boats to risk themselves more at the front lines, to at least look you in the eyes as they fill you with cheese.

In my mind, it's simple to engineer too.

The only issue I have is that it is a useful survival and scouting tool for lights. Maybe detection at extreme ranges could be lowered? I hate to take a decent suggestion and open more argument, but I always worry about changes that affect lighter mechs.

The Frontline is never where I positioned my LRM boats, That is a terrible use of a LONG RANGE weapon systems.

[Khobai]

Again. A 1.5 ton piece of equipment should NOT hard counter LRMs. That has been the problem all along.

ECM should not stop LRMs from being direct or indirect fired. Its bad game design.

It doesnt fix the problem at all. The game will still revolve around ECM to shut down indirect LRMs. And indirect LRMs still have to be on the strong side because of ECM.

Quote

You can still use all the ways we have to use now to do any fire, as ways to do Indirect Fire. (And that is only in the ECM environment.)

(Btw: this IS a "soft counter" it counters ONE aspect of LRM usage, not all of it.)

No its not a soft counter. If it prevents LRMs from being used, its a hard counter.

A soft counter is a counter that doesnt prevent LRMs from being used, but just weakens LRMs instead. AMS for example is a soft counter.

Edited by Khobai, 16 September 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 16 September 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

If I had to put the change net effect in one sentence:

"It will still be stealth against anyone who cannot directly see it on their screens."

Thoughts?

I'm certainly ok with it as long as ECM does not cockblock me when exposed. I deal LRM death mostly directly anyway. It is bad Lurmers who rely solely on IDF.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 September 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Ozric]

This is one of those ideas that came out before ECM was introduced to MWO and the fact the concept was ignored then was one of the reasons we all knew ECM was crazy OP. ECM should never have blocked LOS targeting.

[Tombstoner]

The game needs all forms of ECM from TT rules. not just one...

[KingCobra]

KHOBI you said [Again. A 1.5 ton piece of equipment should NOT hard counter LRMs. That has been the problem all along.ECM should not stop LRMs from being direct or indirect fired. Its bad game design.]

I disagree I think the way ECM works is just fine unless you want to boat LRMS or SRMS in fact I would suggest to PGI to place ECM on all Trial mechs so if we do get new players from time to time they have a ECM shield so they are not LRMED TO DEATH 10-30 seconds into a battle and after a few battles of LRM RAIN AND A QUICK DEATH they uninstall the game.

New player retention is the most important aspect of the game PGI could be working on right now for the games survivability along with new content for existing players.

Edited by KingCobra, 16 September 2014 - 07:27 AM.

[Khobai]

Its not fine. ECM is 1.5 tons. It shouldnt prevent like 20+ tons of launchers from being able to fire. LRMs should be able to fire if anyone on their team has LoS. Period. But like tabletop, indirect LRMs should suffer a severe penalty to accuracy. Which is the whole problem in MWO: indirect LRMs are way too accurate.

So you not only need to weaken ECM so it doesnt shut down indirect LRMs but you also need to weaken indirect LRMs so theyre not nearly as accurate.

Quote

I would suggest to PGI to place ECM on all Trial mechs so if we do get new players from time to time they have a ECM shield so they are not LRMED TO DEATH 10-30 seconds into a battle and after a few battles of LRM RAIN ANDAQUICK DEATH they uninstall the game.

Again a better way is to remove the dependency on ECM in the first place. Your team should not have to have ECM to shutdown LRMs. And you should not get LRMd to death when you dont have ECM.

Edited by Khobai, 16 September 2014 - 07:34 AM.

[DocBach]

I seriously got this. I'm finishing up a 15 page essay on ECM right now

[Kiiyor]

Livewyr, on 16 September 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Besides, there are several light mechs (namely the Jenners and Firestarters) that do well...

Very true, but I believe those lights do well as strikers, not as scouts. In my Jenners, scouting is a death sentence. Maybe I just suck, but I only do well nowadays if I hug the group for safety until battle is joined.

I'd suggest that we add a detection scale for weight classes in addition to your suggestion. Assaults are detected much further out, lights at maybe 500 or so?

Im still for your suggestion. Has my vote.