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Ecm: The Simplest But Most Profound Change.

Started by Livewyr, Sep 16 2014 06:54 AM
Balance

116 replies to this topic

#41 nehebkau

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:09 AM

View PostKhobai, on 16 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Its not fine. ECM is 1.5 tons. It shouldnt prevent like 20+ tons of launchers from being able to fire. LRMs should be able to fire if anyone on their team has LoS. Period. But like tabletop, indirect LRMs should suffer a severe penalty to accuracy. Which is the whole problem in MWO: indirect LRMs are way too accurate.


IT DOESN'T STOP YOU FROM FIRING YOUR LRMS! Stop lying!

#42 Koniving

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:15 AM

Edit: Found the correct reference.

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

That isn't necessarily a bad thing Koniving.

Oh I know.
But that's what a lot of ECM defenders are afraid of.
"ECM will be useless."

Personally, I like this specific feature of ECM.
Read on Sarna, and in the rulebooks (under Tech Manual 3050 Revised Pg. 196 [not TacOps; had them mixed up]) I acquired, that ECM affects thermal, magscan, Seismic sensor, etc.
Tested on megamek, it works in double blind rules against all 3 (which btw some mechs have this, that, the other, some mechs have all 3...)

So here's what happens.
Within 180 meters, Seismic Sensor either (...and I have no idea what this depends on) gives no data (you're not stomping around even though you are) or it gives false readings (you're completely surrounded, panic mode time!)

Within 180 meters, Thermal displays NOTHING, NOWHERE. Apparently it scrambles thermal vision. You become blind until you turn it off. But if we go by the "only BAP can tell if jamming is occurring," then rather than scramble the image it removes all thermal signatures. Personally I'd rather know if thermal stops working by having the image scrambled.

Within 180 meters, MAGSCAN. If an ECM is within 180 meters, MAGSCAN ceases to function as intended, no longer providing you with the ability to see through walls.

It's kind of a shame that BAP in its full tabletop functionality isn't here. If it was, then (to simulate the many failed rolls before a successful one), every so often you could do a BAP scan. This, would be like a UAV that lasts 10 seconds, within 1,000 meters around yourself, allowing you to detect every enemy within 32 hexes (1,020 meters) regardless of line of sight, elevation, above or below ground, etc, so long as they are within a 1,020 meter sphere of you.

This also explains why ECM hard counters BAP (only at close range), even disabling its ability to detect shutdown mechs. However, BAP users are fully aware of jamming [unlike most mechs who supposedly will not know they are jammed until they try something that is jammed].

Interestingly enough through everything I dug up, an LRM's intended long-range for locks is actually 630 meters, and anything beyond that LRMs are very unlikely hit, but can reach out to 1,020 meters before they cut off entirely. This requires an extremely high gunnery skil to pull off and I suspect that is more of a "no lock on guess-work shot' than 'an acquired lock'.
---------------
As for the guy who said to remove LRM's high ballistic angle...
According to the core rulebook, the reason IS LRMs have a 180 meter minimum range to hit penalty has nothing to do with missiles not working at 180 meters and everything to do with the fact that to achieve their 630 and up ranges, they are fired toward the sky and come straight down. (In other words if done like this, the only reason LRMs would have difficulty hitting closer is because LRMs do not fire straight forward. Thus full damage at 0 meters, provided the missiles can come downward fast enough from the launchers to hit).

Clan LRMs on the other hand fire straight forward but can be arched up into the air. Supposedly, Clan LRMs are not as effective at indirect fire over obstacles (as this 1] goes against Clan mentality and is borderline cowardice and 2] it is not feasibly possible for most torso mounted launchers to fire at such an angle; which is why mechs like the Adder have LRMs mounted on the arms when it otherwise makes absolutely no sense with MWO's design).

So there's a tidbit of LRM balancing even if off topic. Creates two entirely different mentalities for the use of LRMs, and all it took was reading 3 pages in two different rule books.

Edited by Koniving, 18 September 2014 - 05:54 AM.

#43 Mystere

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:17 AM

View PostKhobai, on 16 September 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Its bad game design.


If this were 1 vs. 1, I might agree with you.

But this is 12 vs. 12. As such, a good team should weight the risks of not preparing for a situation they might encounter.

As for PUGs, well, it is the perfect place to start teaching players the value of mixed load outs.

#44 DocBach

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM

View PostKoniving, on 16 September 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Oh I know.
But that's what a lot of ECM defenders are afraid of.
"ECM will be useless."

Personally, I like this specific feature of ECM.
Read on Sarna, and in the rulebooks (under Total Warfare and Tactical Operations) I acquired, that ECM affects thermal, magscan, Seismic sensor, etc.
Tested on megamek, it works in double blind rules against all 3 (which btw some mechs have this, that, the other, some mechs have all 3...)

So here's what happens.
Within 180 meters, Seismic Sensor either (...and I have no idea what this depends on) gives no data (you're not stomping around even though you are) or it gives false readings (you're completely surrounded, panic mode time!)

Within 180 meters, Thermal displays NOTHING, NOWHERE. Apparently it scrambles thermal vision. You become blind until you turn it off. But if we go by the "only BAP can tell if jamming is occurring," then rather than scramble the image it removes all thermal signatures. Personally I'd rather know if thermal stops working by having the image scrambled.

Within 180 meters, MAGSCAN. If an ECM is within 180 meters, MAGSCAN ceases to function as intended, no longer providing you with the ability to see through walls.

It's kind of a shame that BAP in its full tabletop functionality isn't here. If it was, then (to simulate the many failed rolls before a successful one), every so often you could do a BAP scan. This, would be like a UAV that lasts 10 seconds, within 1,000 meters around yourself, allowing you to detect every enemy within 32 hexes (1,020 meters) regardless of line of sight, elevation, above or below ground, etc, so long as they are within a 1,020 meter sphere of you.

Interestingly enough through everything I dug up, an LRM's intended range is actually 630 meters, and anything beyond that LRMs are very unlikely hit, but can reach out to 1,020 meters before they cut off entirely.


ECM should have no additional penalties against IR/Magscan/seismic sensors according to Tactical Operations pg 223 -- those sensors each have their own penalities based on things like heat of target and weight respectively. If MegaMek has them being affected perhaps it has its spotting rules programmed incorrectly.

#45 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM

A good write up... But isn't Beagle's range 90 meters or less? :huh:

#46 DocBach

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

A good write up... But isn't Beagle's range 90 meters or less? :huh:


Beagle's long range in double blind rules is 36 hexes

#47 Mystere

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:29 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 16 September 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Reading lots of posts about how people do not want ECM changed for various reasons.
Chief among them is:
It is my shield against (overpowered) LRMs.
I do not think it is a priority.

Both of these concerns have some merit, but so does (I think) the binary relationship with basic LRMs. (ECM shuts off LRM usage unless they carry extra gear to make them work)

In light of that, I think the most profound change, that is yet simple in nature, to move it closer to balance is this:


I have another profound change: Stop using discrete numbers or hard boundaries.

Make missile lock-on times in the presence of ECM effects follow some derivative of the inverse-square law. Make the current discrete range values be at the 25% (or some other) point of the curve. That totally gets rid of the hard counter effects people constantly and very noisily complain about.

Ideally, I would prefer that apply to the full interaction of LOS, ECM, BAP, TAG, and UAV. Heck, the same can be applied for LRM and SSRM lock-on times in the absence of LOS, ECM, BAP, TAG, and UAV for indirect fire.

Edited by Mystere, 16 September 2014 - 08:33 AM.

#48 Koniving

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:44 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

A good write up... But isn't Beagle's range 90 meters or less? :huh:

120 meters for detecting powered down mechs.

The actual effect I was describing however was done by Clan's version of BAP. Mentioned frequently here.

View PostKoniving, on 04 June 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

New battle!
3 mediums, 1 Competition heavy, 1 agricultural mech
versus 3 Clan mediums.

Aside from the heavy, all mechs are stock.

The scene.
A city environment with open plains, brush and some trees to the south. Some hills.

The scenario. A Clan force has bid to take the city by means of 3 mediums.
Inner Sphere:
Koniving
Mechs:
  • Kintaro 19.
  • Trebuchet 7m.
  • Centurion AL.
  • Cattlemaster.
All Stock.


Part time Canadian (PTC)
Mechs:
  • Warhammer competitive build. Pilot: Steiner McSteinerson II.
Versus:



Clan:
Lordred
Mechs:
  • Stormcrow.
  • Hunchback IIC.
  • Shadow Cat.
Spoiler


The ambush planned at this point has been completely compromised by Clan Beagle Active Probe.
Though aware of it (through Lordred pointing it out), the Inner Sphere mechs are unable to detect anything about Clan movements.

During this time, the Cattlemaster, Warhammer, and Centurion began to leave the city to scout as something is obviously awry.

Many mechs are out of position and out of the city. Only the Trebuchet and Kintaro are within the city. The Kintaro moved further behind cover of a complex city block. The Trebuchet moved closer to its allies on the Western side.

In the attacking phase, a fire that was started within the city, strongly suggesting an Eastern approach. The enemy has already invaded the city and no one was the wiser. The ambushers are about to be ambushed!

Spoiler


During Round 8, 1 minute and 10 seconds to 1 minute and 20 seconds into the match, Koniving tries to land onto a building to use it to spot an enemy force.

The building collapses and the mech falls through 3 stories (9 meters). The building crashing around it.

Note that a mech is never taller than 14 meters and a Trebuchet is about 11 meters [it is in lore a very tall medium mech so it can fire its LRMs over hills and small buildings].

Just moments after this occurred, an enemy Stormcrow is spotted overlooking the Trebuchet. The Kintaro immediately comes out of hiding to provide support while the Trebuchet while the pilot recovers enough to attempt to stand.

Note that "accidental fire" is about causing fires within buildings, brush, etc.

Spoiler


At this time, the Warhammer is turning around and reaching the edge of the city again.
3 Clan mechs are now spotted and attacking. Centurion is using a building for cover (to stay out of the Warhammer's line of fire). Cattlemaster is pretty far out.

Spoiler


The Warhammer has destroyed the Nova Cat.
The Trebuchet is dead.

Spoiler


During this phase, the Kintaro stumbles on the Trebuchet's scrap pile and the building it died, resulting in it tripping!

Spoiler


The Cattlemster is now part of the fight.

Spoiler


By some miracle, through multiple bashings, the Centurion is STILL alive despite being beat on by two clan mechs.

Spoiler


The Centurion has been knocked down! After getting up it kicks someone!

Spoiler


Total match time. 170 seconds (2 minutes and 50 seconds).
Clan BAP is overpowered.

#49 Khobai

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:45 AM

Quote

IT DOESN'T STOP YOU FROM FIRING YOUR LRMS! Stop lying!


Yes. It does. LRMs cannot be fired indirectly at targets with ECM. It absolutely does stop you from firing them.

#50 Shibas

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:46 AM

View PostKhobai, on 16 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:


Yes. It does. LRMs cannot be fired indirectly at targets with ECM. It absolutely does stop you from firing them.


you know you can dumbfire lrms right?

#51 Koniving

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:48 AM

View PostDocBach, on 16 September 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Beagle's long range in double blind rules is 36 hexes

So that's longer than my tested range. ^_^ Which was 34 hexes.

#52 DocBach

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:48 AM

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a-i-MS46RELw4-kFVvf--lyR0zR4gOythkxx_X6DVTg/edit?usp=sharing

Edited by DocBach, 16 September 2014 - 08:54 AM.

#53 Gyrok

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:50 AM

Quoting my response from another thread:[color=#CCCCCC]
Posted ImageGyrok, on 15 September 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:[/color]
[color=#959595]

My thoughts:

-ECM Ghost targeting increases lock time to 200% of base time required for locks. This cannot be negated by modules/TCs/Command Console. This mode does not deny indication of position on sensor arrays, and denies information about the target being acquired until the target would be capable of being locked if you have LoS...without LoS your targeting data is not shared.

-ECM has 3 modes Ghost targeting (basically current disrupt but changed to the above mechanic), Counter (same as current), Personal stealth for the carrier mech which pertains to only the mech using it, and decreases sensor detection range to 180m for the carrier mech only.

-Narc/TAG reduces lock time on ECM equipped targets to normal time. This can work in conjunction with modules to decrease the lock time once ECM is countered by a spotter.

-LRMs can only fire indirect with a spotter.

-LRM angle of approach is a much flatter trajectory across the board (both direct/indirect) and velocity is increased to perhaps 180m/s

-NARC duration is reduced to 10 seconds, and cannot be knocked off.

-NARC/TAG negate the added lock time from ECM reducing the lock time to normal base time.[/color]

Edited by Gyrok, 16 September 2014 - 08:52 AM.

#54 Livewyr

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:01 AM

One thing I want to be on peoples' mind:
The larger more complex solutions are the least likely to be widely accepted all at once.

I would rather we do singular but critical changes that over time morph ECM to where the player base is (mostly) happy with it.

Some people do not give a damn about TT, so for them, you HAVE to look at it from purely a game-play perspective and let that play a part in your changes. (That is what I am attempting to do here. I would love nothing more than to just make it a TT transfer with slight modifications for real time play- however, not everyone sees it that way.)

Small and simple steps. (Shoot for the moon at first launch, and you will likely fail.)

Crawl -> Walk -> Run.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 September 2014 - 09:03 AM.

#55 Shino Tenshi

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:06 AM

I unfortunately can't devote the time to reading the entire discussion on this thread, but I agree with how this would affect LRMs and think it'd be a totally fair way of dealing with ECM from the perspective of a LRM boat pilot (I love my Stalker :) ).

That being said, I also think this would completely destroy the stealth scout aspect of ECM, which to me as a big fan of sneaking around and behind the enemy to spot, NARC, or cause enemy confusion by shooting their backs right before there's a push by my teammates. I think in most cases I would be within direct LOS by someone within 800m (or 1km if they have enhanced sensors of some sort) and the ECM stealth function of not showing up on everyone's HUD is the only thing that saves my ass and makes ECM lights fun to play. It's already hard enough to get a remotely decent round C-Bill/XP/Score wise out of an ECM light, please don't make a change like this that would kill the playability as well :/

#56 Foxwalker

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:06 AM

Such a little change.... But I think you may be wrong about how profoundly it could or will change the game.

It seems pretty balanced right now to me. ECM is countered by so many things, Enemy ECM, BAP, TAG, UAV, NARC, PPC fire, Seismic Sensor and direct line of site weapons, even a small Nerf could put it into the, I would rather use the tonnage for something else category. (Which may be what you are going for).

Edited by Foxwalker, 16 September 2014 - 09:07 AM.

#57 Livewyr

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:14 AM

View PostShino Tenshi, on 16 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

I unfortunately can't devote the time to reading the entire discussion on this thread, but I agree with how this would affect LRMs and think it'd be a totally fair way of dealing with ECM from the perspective of a LRM boat pilot (I love my Stalker :) ).

That being said, I also think this would completely destroy the stealth scout aspect of ECM, which to me as a big fan of sneaking around and behind the enemy to spot, NARC, or cause enemy confusion by shooting their backs right before there's a push by my teammates. I think in most cases I would be within direct LOS by someone within 800m (or 1km if they have enhanced sensors of some sort) and the ECM stealth function of not showing up on everyone's HUD is the only thing that saves my ass and makes ECM lights fun to play. It's already hard enough to get a remotely decent round C-Bill/XP/Score wise out of an ECM light, please don't make a change like this that would kill the playability as well :/


You would still have a large part of that effect.

No ECM: You show up on everyone's radar the moment someone hits "R" on your regardless of their locations.
"New" ECM: Your dorito shows up on the radar of anyone who can see you. (LOS) however, them hitting "R" does not paste you on everyone's radar.

You would not have complete stealth (which is the realm of Stealth Armor) but you would still have "effective" stealth in that even if someone hits "R" on you with LoS, they are still the only ones that see you.

View PostFoxwalker, on 16 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Such a little change.... But I think you may be wrong about how profoundly it could or will change the game.

It seems pretty balanced right now to me. ECM is countered by so many things, Enemy ECM, BAP, TAG, UAV, NARC, PPC fire, Seismic Sensor and direct line of site weapons, even a small Nerf could put it into the, I would rather use the tonnage for something else category. (Which may be what you are going for).


Foxwalker, the problem with those counters is:
They all have to be actively followed through just to negate the ECM. (Or be in melee range with ECCM/BAP) While ECM does not have to do anything in particular. That is not nearly a balanced interaction. (And is quite silly that you have to use a TAG laser to be able to target something sitting 201 meters in front of you.

---------------
EDIT: And it would be a MASSIVE change.
No more stealth-given initiative when right in front of someone.
No more complete shut out of basic LRMs.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 September 2014 - 09:15 AM.

#58 nehebkau

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:19 AM

View PostKhobai, on 16 September 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:


Yes. It does. LRMs cannot be fired indirectly at targets with ECM. It absolutely does stop you from firing them.


NO IT DOESN'T. You just have to aim at them and fire without a lock! (and I like how you snuck in that indirectly -- OH NO now I have to have LOS to fire! OH my!)

In case you are wondering I am getting tired of the 1/2 truths.

Edited by nehebkau, 16 September 2014 - 09:27 AM.

#59 Scratx

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:43 AM

View Postnehebkau, on 16 September 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:


NO IT DOESN'T. You just have to aim at them and fire without a lock! (and I like how you snuck in that indirectly -- OH NO now I have to have LOS to fire! OH my!)

In case you are wondering I am getting tired of the 1/2 truths.


If you can see them to dumbfire at them, it's not indirect fire.

Also, dumbfired LRMs are ridiculously unreliable since they rely on the stupidity of the target by standing still.

If you actually use LRMs, you'd know this. Dumbfired LRMs are a waste of ammo in almost every circumstance.

#60 Koniving

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:53 AM

View PostDocBach, on 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:


ECM should have no additional penalties against IR/Magscan/seismic sensors according to Tactical Operations pg 223 -- those sensors each have their own penalities based on things like heat of target and weight respectively. If MegaMek has them being affected perhaps it has its spotting rules programmed incorrectly.

Sorry. Wrong quote.
Referred to the wrong book (tactical operations).
Technical Readout: 3050, p. 197 Sarna's referenced source. I cannot find it in the TRO 3050 upgrade.
I do not have and cannot find a TRO 3050 original.

Still. I like the idea. It gives a reason for players to stop using things like Seismic, Thermal, etc.


Checking the enabled rules on megamek for a possible source.
No source or settable rule. It's simply a part of 'TacOps Double Blind" setting.
For the obvious effects to take place, you must switch your sensor-suite to X (thermal, magscan, seismic) and it begins on the next turn.
I don't have any leads to why it works other than the Sarna reference.

WAIT!

Okay, so your thingy on 223 shows the Detection levels of X forms of stealth against X forms of detection and ECM's enhancement of said stealth against said detection.

ECM gives no additional benefits against said forms of IR/MAGSCAN/etc. detection when combined with X forms of stealth.

I suspect that page means: ECM + those have no additional benefits against thermal.
Re-read that page a few times.
Posted Image
(By the highlight you can tell I'm really interested in that void signature system. It literally sounds like what ECM is doing in MWO)
I'll be looking further into this though.
Anyone got an original TRO-3050?

Edited by Koniving, 16 September 2014 - 11:14 AM.

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