63 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Mcgral18, on 16 September 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

How did this happen? Look at the bads.

They happened. They only had 3 bads, compared to your 11.

That many bads....is just painful.

It's not even necessarily bads. My group was playing the other night and we ran up against as 12-man after the MM gave up looking after ~3 minutes.

I did the most damage on the team at something pathetic like 199. We had 8 people under 100 (both of the other lances), but no one at 0 and as I recall only 1-2 under 50. They just steamrolled us using high mobility and focused fire.

My group isn't l33t, but we don't suck. We just ran into a vastly more talented (and coordinated) team. It happens.

[Bront]

Uneven matches happen even in the team queue. I once rolled a 12 man with a 4 man with a 12-1 victory, and I've been rolled as a 10 man vs less than 8 mans. Something goes wrong, and you can get a steamroll if the team is well organized or at least is able to take advantage of your team's deficiencies.

Ultimately, you can't get away from the team roll, It can happen. Just move on, and drop again, and at worse, it was 15 minutes of your time.

Joseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Dude your team was owned by a Firestarter! I suspect a large cluster of your team and a Arty strike. In which case it is perfectly acceptable.

I've done better in a firestarter in a PUG match without an arty strike. It happens.



How? I ran into mechs I'd swear had no more than 20 points of leg armor and ammo, or would simply stop and fire at other teammates while exposing their back to me, or simply ran away from me, and meanwhile I got ignored by any nearby teammates (if there were any). I also could run around to the different isolated mechs and pile on to them as they wandered off.

It happens, particularly in PUG matches, but occasionally even in the team queue. The difference is the PUG matches tend to be a lot more of an unorgnized cluster, occasionally with players calling orders to help coordinate, and often with players arguing with that idea and going another direction. In the team queue, you usually have at least a few 4 man or larger groups trying to be coordinated, which tends to lead to a few less rolls.

[Bront]

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

Again, this match ended in 3 minutes. I actually have complained about the stupid MM constantly. I don't want to win in 3 minutes either. It's not Mechwarrior. This is not tactical, thinking, combat

I do 3 minute wins in the group queue all the time. Often times, it's the result of an amazing brawl that breaks out almost immediately, and while it can be a roll, I've seen a few 12-6 matches that ended in 3 minutes or so (and those are close matches, most remaining mechs are just beaten up).

[Willard Phule]

Monkey Lover, on 16 September 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

so im guessing you have a few disconnects and couple new people.

This right here.

The people that play in the group queue don't seem to understand how the solo MM works....either that or the just outright deny that new players are used to fill in slots to "even the average Elo between teams." It amounts to having to carry them and seriously unbalances any given match.

Joseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Dude your team was owned by a Firestarter! I suspect a large cluster of your team and a Arty strike. In which case it is perfectly acceptable.

Take a closer look at the composition of the losing team and the sheer number of "below 100 damage" people they had. A Dire Whale with 0 damage...odds are it was an AFK or desync. You get more than 100 damage with a DW by simply walking out of spawn.

But, in all seriousness, the distribution of damage tells a story all it's own. The losing team died quickly, without doing a fraction of the damage the winning team did. In the solo queue, that normally happens when you have a lot of new players standing still, zooming in and fixating on a target...they don't even realize that they're crowding their teammates or even shooting them in the back. Then, when they get run over, they act surprised.

It is what it is. The MM is still a mess in the solo queue.

[Why Run]

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

This right here.

The people that play in the group queue don't seem to understand how the solo MM works....either that or the just outright deny that new players are used to fill in slots to "even the average Elo between teams." It amounts to having to carry them and seriously unbalances any given match.



Take a closer look at the composition of the losing team and the sheer number of "below 100 damage" people they had. A Dire Whale with 0 damage...odds are it was an AFK or desync. You get more than 100 damage with a DW by simply walking out of spawn.

But, in all seriousness, the distribution of damage tells a story all it's own. The losing team died quickly, without doing a fraction of the damage the winning team did. In the solo queue, that normally happens when you have a lot of new players standing still, zooming in and fixating on a target...they don't even realize that they're crowding their teammates or even shooting them in the back. Then, when they get run over, they act surprised.

It is what it is. The MM is still a mess in the solo queue.

THIS! ALL OF THIS. It neither helps bring new players in, nor does it make casual play fun. It's just sad.

[Why Run]

I guess this also begs the question, are there really this few mid-elo players that it's either experienced or new? I will be honest, my best mechs are Medium and Heavy, so I'm likely mid ELO in assault, but come on. It's not a positive thing if there is no mid-tier player base...

[WarHippy]

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

This right here.

The people that play in the group queue don't seem to understand how the solo MM works....either that or the just outright deny that new players are used to fill in slots to "even the average Elo between teams." It amounts to having to carry them and seriously unbalances any given match.

I have spent almost all of my time up to about 3 weeks ago exclusively dropping solo. The MM does fine. Sure, sometimes you get some new people in the match, but over all most of the games end in the neighborhood of 12-6. Stomps still happen, but that will ALWAYS be the case because of all the variables involved with how the match plays out. I still won more than I lost, and sometimes my team just got out played.

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Take a closer look at the composition of the losing team and the sheer number of "below 100 damage" people they had. A Dire Whale with 0 damage...odds are it was an AFK or desync. You get more than 100 damage with a DW by simply walking out of spawn.

Someone being AFK or desynced has nothing to do with the MM because that is something the MM can't control. As for getting more than 100 damage in a Dire Wolf some people are really that bad, and sometimes people make colossal mistakes that get them killed before they have a chance to do much of anything.(I know because it has happened to me) It doesn't take much for a match to snowball when people make mistakes and/or one or more people are afk. These are not problems the MM can fix, and why stomps will always happen no matter what tweaks they make to the MM.

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

But, in all seriousness, the distribution of damage tells a story all it's own. The losing team died quickly, without doing a fraction of the damage the winning team did. In the solo queue, that normally happens when you have a lot of new players standing still, zooming in and fixating on a target...they don't even realize that they're crowding their teammates or even shooting them in the back. Then, when they get run over, they act surprised.

Again, stomps happen both in the solo queue and the group queue for a lot of different reasons. You can't just assume that a team in the solo queue got run over because of "insert excuse here". What normally happens is someone loses a game and they have to look for someone to blame to explain how they lost because it just shouldn't have happened to them. The OP is a good example as he was in a Clan assault mech and did less that 200 damage, but instead of seeing that he and his team performed very poorly he jumps on here to complain that the MM is to blame, and then you jump on to his defense to point out those evil new players and people that you can only assume disconnected. Instead of pointing fingers try and understand that you are not always going to win, and sometimes you are going to lose really badly.

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

It is what it is. The MM is still a mess in the solo queue.

Not from my perspective.

[Joseph Mallan]

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

On second thought, maybe I'll just build my own 9PPC direwhale and troll the new players.

Actually, it was not an arty. We were shamefully dispersed along the B-line, but not close enough to get artyed like that. It was just pathetic. I just don't get why after so many games, I get matched with players in brand new mechs. I don't want to play that game, it's horri-bad.

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

THIS! ALL OF THIS. It neither helps bring new players in, nor does it make casual play fun. It's just sad.

And your your total damage was under 200. I'm sorry but you suffered a crushing defeat by the numbers to less Clan tech than your team had. You had all the P2W and was rolled. By all rights your side had all the advantages and still got hammered.

The top 3 enemy damage dealers were a Medium and 2 Lights! Against 2 Dire Wolves!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 September 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[Bilbo]

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

This right here.

The people that play in the group queue don't seem to understand how the solo MM works....either that or the just outright deny that new players are used to fill in slots to "even the average Elo between teams." It amounts to having to carry them and seriously unbalances any given match.

...

That is not how it works. I don't feel like digging up the relevant info, though, so you may continue with your delusions.

[Foksuh]

PGI needs to fix or improve on a whole lot of things but unfortunately players are not one of those things.

Can't fix the players, but players can affect the people they end up in teams with, at least a little bit.

[Why Run]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

And your your total damage was under 200. I'm sorry but you suffered a crushing defeat by the numbers to less Clan tech than your team had. You had all the P2W and was rolled. By all rights your side had all the advantages and still got hammered.

The top 3 enemy damage dealers were a Medium and 2 Lights! Against 2 Dire Wolves!

I frankly don't even understand this. You're right, I did very little damage in my zero unlocked, brand new Masakari which i have never used. However I did combined more than the lowest 6 guys on my team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I did nothing.

[Willard Phule]

Bilbo, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

That is not how it works. I don't feel like digging up the relevant info, though, so you may continue with your delusions.

Then, please, enlighten me as to "how it works."

I have apparently been under the misconception that when someone first joins the game (aka: New Player), they are given a very low Elo score with the intent of keeping them out of the general population until after their first 25 matches. That, however, does NOT happen depending on the number of players at any given time. I have still seen many new players in regular matches. But, whatever.

After the first 25 matches, they are given an Elo score of 1700 (or 1800). Note I said "given." They did not work their way up there during the first 25 matches, it was simply handed to them. That places them squarely in the middle of the Elo range. This has been referred to as "artificially inflating" their Elo score.

The current matchmaker (which was rewritten around the time of the Clan release) does it's best to follow 3/3/3/3 and to try to make the "average" Elo score of both teams equal. It has been expressed by many people that they see it as using the lower scored people to fill the gaps when a higher scored person is placed on a team to ensure an equal average.

Example:

Team 1: 500+500+500= 1500, 1500/3=500 So, the average of those 3 people is 500....makes sense, right?
Team 2: 100+100+1300=1500, 1500/3=500 The average of these 3 people is also 500...however, it seems readily apparent that Team 1 will walk right over Team 2 unless the guy with the 1300 is good enough to take on all 3 by himself.

This is what we've been experiencing in the solo queue for a long, long time.

[Willard Phule]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 September 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

And your your total damage was under 200. I'm sorry but you suffered a crushing defeat by the numbers to less Clan tech than your team had. You had all the P2W and was rolled. By all rights your side had all the advantages and still got hammered.

The top 3 enemy damage dealers were a Medium and 2 Lights! Against 2 Dire Wolves!

Sometimes, man, you can do your absolute best in the solo queue and still do less than 200 damage. A lot of things factor in, not the least of which is an "Elite Veteran" hitting you square in the back with an Alpha Strike from his brand new Dire Wolf because he needed to "test fire his weapons." And, yes, it happens a LOT early in the morning.

Or, let's say you've got a team full of "Elite Veterans" running nothing but LRM boats....and they simply refuse to get their own targets. If you go out to lock for them, you're going alone and you're going to get wiped. If you stay with them to protect them (ha!), you're going to be the first target they go for because you're the only one actually shooting at them. The "Elite Veterans" still haven't figured out that you can shoot LRMs without a lock.....although, I'm pretty sure that's covered in the tutorial. The New Player experience here is fairly all-encompassing, you know.

[Joseph Mallan]

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Sometimes, man, you can do your absolute best in the solo queue and still do less than 200 damage. A lot of things factor in, not the least of which is an "Elite Veteran" hitting you square in the back with an Alpha Strike from his brand new Dire Wolf because he needed to "test fire his weapons." And, yes, it happens a LOT early in the morning.

Or, let's say you've got a team full of "Elite Veterans" running nothing but LRM boats....and they simply refuse to get their own targets. If you go out to lock for them, you're going alone and you're going to get wiped. If you stay with them to protect them (ha!), you're going to be the first target they go for because you're the only one actually shooting at them. The "Elite Veterans" still haven't figured out that you can shoot LRMs without a lock.....although, I'm pretty sure that's covered in the tutorial. The New Player experience here is fairly all-encompassing, you know.

I can't say about that as I am at work or sleeping "early"

[Joseph Mallan]

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I frankly don't even understand this. You're right, I did very little damage in my zero unlocked, brand new Masakari which i have never used. However I did combined more than the lowest 6 guys on my team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I did nothing.

Thank you for the correction on your Mech used, and the valid explanation why you did poorly, the rest of your team did not play well with others, and got rolled in the process. I had 2 games in a row like this one we are discussing. It was stunning to have the game over so fast. but it is what it is. Routed by the numbers. Your team did everything wrong and your enemy didn't.

[Why Run]

My point is clearly these are new players that I have no business playing with. Great, once they learn the game, I'll be happy to play with them. But any matchmaker that still puts me with people who cannot manage 30 points in a game is plain broken. I've been around since the beginning... It's not fun to play with 7 new guys. And I'm sure it's not a lot of fun for them...

[Bilbo]

Willard Phule, on 16 September 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Then, please, enlighten me as to "how it works."

I have apparently been under the misconception that when someone first joins the game (aka: New Player), they are given a very low Elo score with the intent of keeping them out of the general population until after their first 25 matches. That, however, does NOT happen depending on the number of players at any given time. I have still seen many new players in regular matches. But, whatever.

After the first 25 matches, they are given an Elo score of 1700 (or 1800). Note I said "given." They did not work their way up there during the first 25 matches, it was simply handed to them. That places them squarely in the middle of the Elo range. This has been referred to as "artificially inflating" their Elo score.

The current matchmaker (which was rewritten around the time of the Clan release) does it's best to follow 3/3/3/3 and to try to make the "average" Elo score of both teams equal. It has been expressed by many people that they see it as using the lower scored people to fill the gaps when a higher scored person is placed on a team to ensure an equal average.

Example:

Team 1: 500+500+500= 1500, 1500/3=500 So, the average of those 3 people is 500....makes sense, right?
Team 2: 100+100+1300=1500, 1500/3=500 The average of these 3 people is also 500...however, it seems readily apparent that Team 1 will walk right over Team 2 unless the guy with the 1300 is good enough to take on all 3 by himself.

This is what we've been experiencing in the solo queue for a long, long time.

From Karl's thread in off topic.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3534326

"The matchmaker doesn't specifically set out with this goal, no. It starts by seeding with a relatively old request, and uses the calculated Elo of that request to iteratively search the matchmaking queue for similarly skilled team members and opponents. Over time, the window of requests that it examines widens. That said, if one team ends up significantly ahead of the other team in terms of Elo, we have a tunable blending formula that can bias the search in an attempt to re-balance the teams."

[Why Run]

And don't you think, maybe, something is wrong with the game if this is "normal," as you seem to suggest?

[1453 R]

Stop complaining about the matchmaker. It will never work the way you want it to, because the matchmaker working the way MM Haters want it to work is literally impossible. It cannot be accomplished by the means available to the human race.

Sometimes rolls happen. They happen in every other game, too. I've played my share of Call of Duty matches where our team went something like 240-750 huddled miserably in our spawn area being kicked around like hackey sacks. It's an inevitable fact of life in a multiplayer team game that sometimes one team, through either luck or talent, manages to catch all the breaks while the other one gets broken.

Get over it, STAAAAHHHP making Piranha waste resources on their matchmaker already, and move on to the next match. Alternatively, Git Gud.

[Joseph Mallan]

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

My point is clearly these are new players that I have no business playing with. Great, once they learn the game, I'll be happy to play with them. But any matchmaker that still puts me with people who cannot manage 30 points in a game is plain broken. I've been around since the beginning... It's not fun to play with 7 new guys. And I'm sure it's not a lot of fun for them...

And You too were a part of that roll. Don't blame the boots, Don't blame the match maker. chalk it up to feces happens and exhale. It serves me well. Specially on nights like last night.

Why Run, on 16 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

And don't you think, maybe, something is wrong with the game if this is "normal," as you seem to suggest?

Nope. The better team wins. Working as intended.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 September 2014 - 10:49 AM.