27 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Zyllos, on 16 September 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

The ECM changes listed in this document seem "straight forward" as to be easy to implement for engineers (best type of changes are ones that are minor and easy to implement and perform the requirement for the fix needed).

Here is the list of proposals that I read in your document (which is still living document, thus changing):



This change, which seems good on the surface, still leaves GECM in the state that it is a *must* for any mech that can bring it. At least to me, it seems that way.

The "equipped with GECM" is perfect to let those mechs that like to scout to be able to with GECM cover for itself.



No different than it works now other than only for itself now instead of within a range. Basically stating that GECM will block "targeting" of a GECM equipped mech. This is fine.



Seems perfectly fine and valid.




Good idea to me.




Good to me.



No difference than now, and seems good.




Just a question, does this mean if the target is 300m out and an GECM mech is within 180m, the player will have a 200% lock on penalty?

Either way, seems valid to me.



Nothing new here.



I would like to add that PPC should disable GECM for a bit longer, maybe 10.0s? Still good.



This is needed.



Nothing new.



Nothing new, I think?



Nothing new.



This I disagree with.

BAP should never counter ECM. Instead, BAP should allow for non-LOS detection of mechs within it's range. ECM will block this non-LOS detection for those protected by GECM. Seismic is used to counter GECM for non-LOS spotting, but it's only useful while standing still and getting to see were a mech is, not actually allowing for targeting and sharing.

The extended range allowing for detection is a good change and should be included.



As above, seems good.

Overall, these changes are almost perfectly aligned with what I would expect GECM to be changed to. Allowance of still firing LRMs at those protected by GECM but lock on times are longer. GECM would still facilitate the scouting role by reducing detection range for the mech equipped with it (or ambushing role for those other mechs that can equip it).

I would like to add a few additions that I think are needed along side with the above GECM changes to feel correct:

• LRMs would need to be less spammy (higher cooldowns).
  
• LRMs should fire at bones (just like SSRMs) in swarms of 5 LRMs each.
  
• LRMs speed increases to 250m/s. (AMS increases to match speed)
  
• LRMs take a low trajectory when dumb fired.
  
• LRMs need to be more accurate to reaching targets once a lock is achieved.
  
• LRMs need to lose the requirement for maintaining lock after firing the LRMs but spotted target (triangle indicator) still needs to be maintained for the firer of LRMs.
  
• Target sharing should only happen after having targeted a mech for 5.0s. (another tier in the IW part)
  
• BAP can detect a mech within it's range, regardless of LOS. (as above)
  
• SSRMs need a separate target scheme (so Artemis doesn't effect it).
  
  • SSRMs only lock at their specified range (270m for IS/360m for Clan).
    
  • SSRMs fire at bones in a pair of SRMs.
    
  • SSRMs lock on speed is 0.5s, which produces a "tick".
    
  • When SSRMs are fired, each launcher requires a "tick" and is fired in order of weapon groups (top to bottom).
    
  • Use an "X" style lock on graphic and new sound for a "tick".
    
  • All "ticks" are lost if lock is not regained after 1.0s.

The above changes are absolutely needed along side the GECM changes so all of IW and it's related equipment feel balanced with each other.


LRMs will become more accurate due to increased speeds and no need to retain locks (but the target still needs to be spotted, either by direct LOS or shared). Their damage will be more consistent in damage against targets of all sizes due to targeting bones in swarms of 5 LRMs each. This also makes small launchers and large launchers act in the same manner as larger launchers just shoot more swarms of 5 LRMs, which act no different than a LRM/5.

Sharing targets requires longer targets, which will help facilitate BAP for scouting by gaining target information (which sharing now becomes a part of) quicker. BAP itself is better by allowing for non-LOS spotting in a short distance.

SSRMs will be separated from LRM locks. Their locks are much faster for small bursts but require longer locks for high amount of SSRM launchers. Each grouping of SSRMs will be a bit more consistent in damage as they group in 2 SSRMs each (pair) per bone target. Larger launchers just fires more pairs per firing.

I understand this is MUCH more expanded, beyond GECM. But it is basically needed as all these weapons interact with each other in ways that make it hard to disconnect them and be able to change them one at a time without causing issues.

These changes proposed also leads the opening for C3 and AECM.

Just asking here, but you DO realize that hits with LRMs in TT past about ~600m were basically impossible. Sure, you could get lucky and try it, but you were wasting ammo, essentially. Hence, the increase to 250m/s is a bit overkill. I proposed they be bumped to ~180m/s with changes I posted in my ECM thread, which, admittedly, is a simpler overhaul of ECM. I think it does what people want though.

[DocBach]

Jacob Side, on 17 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Only suggestion I have is for LRM's fired at Mechs in the ECM field is that they suffer a slight increase in spread.
Granted lore says that they function just fine but I feel that LRM's need just a slight counter for crossing into the ECM field

I'm Leary of adjustments to spread -- playing around with spread caused some screwy things before in the past.

[Joseph Mallan]

Malleus011, on 16 September 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'd prefer they play their sniper by using a small 'mech at very long range, which can be done with sensor ranges that vary based on size (plus perhaps active/passive and all that). I'd much rather have that than 'equip ECM, be invisible'. But that's just my opinion.

The problem with this is a Sniper needs a High power weapon and how many high power weapons can a Light carry and still be able to run for the hills when the time comes? A good Sniper would be a Shadow Hawk or Griffin, good speed, good protection, capable of carrying a high power weapon. We cannot utilize actual Camo so an ECM Snipes is all we have to make them "invisible".

[DocBach]

The invisibility for the 'Mechs that can carry ECM (with the exception of the Atlas and the upcoming Hellbringer), are all little fast light 'Mechs. Removing the stealth ability from ECM would affect light 'Mechs greatest, they would be detectable when spotting, sniping, etc and become vulnerable to Streak missiles. ECM toned down would make Streak missiles still work against them, just with penalty.

ECM with this change would still benefit Atlases and team mates around them with missile defense in the form of the lock on penalty, but it would not be a complete hard counter against LRM's as they currently are.

The biggest intent is to remove the hard counter feature -- nobody should have a weapon system completely negated because of another piece of equipment that requires more equipment stacking. That's poor game design. Penalties and debuffs that can be countered or buffs to that can be debuffed like Artemis is fine, but when your entire team has entire roles disabled because a 1.5 ton device was given to the other team at the will of the match maker, something is wrong.

[Green Mamba]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

The problem with this is a Sniper needs a High power weapon and how many high power weapons can a Light carry and still be able to run for the hills when the time comes? A good Sniper would be a Shadow Hawk or Griffin, good speed, good protection, capable of carrying a high power weapon. We cannot utilize actual Camo so an ECM Snipes is all we have to make them "invisible".

I am on record that they need a Ghillie' Suit add on..I guess it would need to be about 30 feet long but it would work maybe some old Hot Air Ballons with some netting attached over them for applying of local vegetation and twigs err... tree limbs in this case

Edited by Green Mamba, 17 September 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[DocBach]

When doing research for this essay I realized that ECM is actually pretty spot on to how it should act when you take in its effects from the expanded rule sets.

The most apparent difference between MechWarrior Online and Battletech is the fact that Battletech doesn't take in account of requiring a manual lock like PGI translated in their LRM mechanic -- if you can see it in Battletech, you can shoot it as if ECM isn't present.

Probably the best way to implement that in this game would be to allow enemies that are visible within sensor range to be manually targeted -- just like a unit visually spotted in Battletech can be attacked unhindered by any weapon system.

By changing targeting to allow a player to manually target an enemy in line of sight by putting the reticle over the visible enemy and hiting R, ECM could retain its stealth ability against unaware players, but still be targeted by those players who visually spots them, and thus be able to use LRM's. Add in an interpretation scanning rules from Tactical Operations in the form of delayed targeting information on manually selected targets inside of ECM so ECM still provides information obscurity and call it a day.

LRM's are no longer hard countered but still penalized with the 100% lock on time delay, players would need to maintain situational awareness with the "Eyeball, Mk 1," to detect ECM 'Mechs, ECM still provides information denial with a information gathering time penalty, and being able to share spotted targets location with friendlies would give the PUG's somewhere to steer their attention to.

Edited by DocBach, 17 September 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[EvAbsence]

Read it all. Love it.

[DocBach]

For someone who's been a member for 2 years to use one of his 4 posts to comment on this is an honor in itself!