59 replies to this topic

[5LeafClover]

I'm an IS only player. There is nothing wrong with clan XL engines as they are.

A minor survivability buff for IS XLs would do most for game balance, to narrow the gulf to both clan XL and IS std. Unless you are in a light or catapult, XLs aren't a good choice. In my opinion, this is best delivered via a module.

[dario03]

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 September 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

The clan XL doesn't need a heavy nerf like the OP suggests, just a light one.

On side torso destruction, mech looses heat sinks and runs hotter. I'm pretty sure this will be implemented soon.

I would also like to see a small performance drop in all movement (speed, turning, torso twist, arm movement, etc...), but have it lightly impacted (like the mech suddenly became 15 tons heavier). That probably won't be implemented ever, but it would seem fair.

The heat change will be good for now when it's implemented, that might be enough.

I don't consider this a heavy nerf, especially if you go with the higher damage suggestions. If you get 3 torsos red then you are almost dead so I wouldn't really call it a heavy nerf.

But I agree if all they do is side torso penalties (which I still say is just better than IS XL) then I would like to see heat and movement penalties. And I kind of want to say that they mentioned that as a possibility before but maybe not, I'm not sure. If it is just heat then you are only hurting mechs that run hot. UAC5 boats probably wouldn't even notice and gauss boats wouldn't be hurt any more than they are now.

Maybe go with something in between. So don't die if you get 3 torsos to certain damage but start losing engine heatsinks and movement/torso speed at certain damages.

1453 R, on 25 September 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

I've learned the hard way that this isn't a topic you're going to be able to have a reasonable discussion about, OP. The rabid IS purists who want to go back to last year's PPC meta except set in 3025 For The Rest Of Time won't settle for anything less than excising the Clans from the game completely, and will generally say the following: "Does the damned thing die when a shoulder blows out? No? STILL OP HAX, GTFO." And of course, half the Clan side is in it for the perceived superiority over the Spheroid side and will flip their lids when anyone suggests any kind of degradation.

My suggestion is to let Piranha do whatever they're going to do, let them take the heat for Ruining It Forever, keep your head down and just keep playing. Piranha's got a lot of practice weathering RIF heat, and none of the jabbering yaks on this forum can ever come to any kind of reasonable consensus anyways.

I would rather make suggestions before they put in changes so that maybe they actually consider those suggestions before spending a bunch of time on a different change and then not want to jump over to a completely different change. Granted the chances of them doing my own suggestion is small because I'm just one random guy on the forum but still I'll put the suggestion out there and like I said this thread was for almost any suggestion not just mine.

But yeah this forum has a lot of hostile people on it. Just see my thread where I said bonus rewards should be based on money spent instead of packages and you can see some people attacking me over it. When I bet if PGI had just done that from the beginning almost nobody would of been against it. But if we get enough people making suggestions then maybe some where between the IS purists saying nerf them to the ground and the clan's saying make them OP, we could get something in the middle that works. So yeah I'll wait and see what happens which will most likely be heat penalties but I would prefer my suggestion or at least heat and movement.

Edited by dario03, 25 September 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[Xyroc]

Clan XLs are fine and dont need nerfs. Notice I'm a IS pilot.

Edited by Beliall, 25 September 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Khobai]

Clan XLs should get the penalty of -10 heat dissipation when a side torso gets blown out. Because thats how they worked in tabletop and thats an easy thing to add to MWO.

Quote

A minor survivability buff for IS XLs would do most for game balance,

Its called a Light Fusion engine. They start getting field tested in 3053. Its basically the IS equivalent of a Clan XL engine, but it weighs slightly more.

Light Fusion engines being added a few years early would help balance things out for IS.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Metus regem]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Clan XLs should get the penalty of -10 heat dissipation when a side torso gets blown out. Because thats how they worked in tabletop and thats an easy thing to add to MWO.

That seems to be the general consensus on them...

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Clan XLs should get the penalty of -10 heat dissipation when a side torso gets blown out. Because thats how they worked in tabletop and thats an easy thing to add to MWO.

-10 heat dissipation per second? Because a Dire Wolf with 23 DHS and a completely unlocked mech tree dissipates 4.39 heat per second.

Edited by Rouken, 25 September 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

-10 heat dissipation per second? Because a Dire Wolf with 23 DHS and a completely unlocked pilot tree dissipates 4.39 heat per second.

Heatsinks work based off 10 second turns in tabletop. So it would be -10 heat dissipation per 10 seconds or -1 heat dissipation per 1 second.

Youre always going to have at least 10 DHS in a clan mech. So thats 20 dissipation per 10 seconds or 2 dissipation per 1 second (without skill bonuses). If you lose a side torso that amount would only be decreased by 1 dissipation per 1 second. In other words your mech can never have negative dissipation as a result of losing a side torso.

So using your example, if a Dire Wolf with 23 DHS that normally dissipates 4.4 heat per second loses a side torso, it's dissipation rate would go down to 3.4 heat per second. Its not a crippling penalty but its certainly a noticeable one.

Edited by Khobai, 25 September 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[warner2]

Apologies if this has already been suggested / discussed.

It's true that one of the major benefits you get from the Clan XL is speed and free tonnage with no loss of survivability in practical terms.

It seems to me the gulf between running an IS XL and a clan XL is survivability. The balance change that was done recently (lose a clan XL side torso loose 2 engine heat sinks?) makes no sense to me. It doesn't close the gulf in survivability. Further it doesn't sound like a big deal for the heat efficiency because if you loose a side torso you lose an arm and have probably lost weapons so you don't need those heat sinks anyway.

I think a small reduction in the survivability of the clan XL is needed with a corresponding buff (more on this afterwards). Small, because you don't have the option of swapping engines. What I thought would be easy to add into the game is that when you loose a clan XL side torso instead of further damage transferring to CT it transfers to the other side torso. The destroyed torso becomes less of a shield and the overall survivability goes down a small or moderate amount.

Then to balance that change out make CASE work properly! Right now IS can effectively use CASE with standard engines whilst clan do not have the option of using it with their XLs. So this is an advantage to IS in terms of building survivable 'mechs. Make CASE work properly with XL engines and now both clan and IS have the option of storing ammo more safely in a side torso.

In summary make changes that affect survivability because what is out of whack here is that clan XL are more or less in practical terms as survivable as IS standard with all of the benefits of an IS XL.

[Innocent]

Why is anyone still talking about this? In less than 2 weeks the IS mechs will get buffed far enough that only 3 of the clan mechs will be able to compete (the joke is the others can't compete now without quirks).

[LordKnightFandragon]

neg, the IS are getting a heap of quirk buffs, so chill on the clan nerfs.....ffs lol. We keep up the Clan nerfs and they will be nothing more then inferior IS mechs....

[Metus regem]

warner2, on 17 October 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Apologies if this has already been suggested / discussed.

It's true that one of the major benefits you get from the Clan XL is speed and free tonnage with no loss of survivability in practical terms.

It seems to me the gulf between running an IS XL and a clan XL is survivability. The balance change that was done recently (lose a clan XL side torso loose 2 engine heat sinks?) makes no sense to me. It doesn't close the gulf in survivability. Further it doesn't sound like a big deal for the heat efficiency because if you loose a side torso you lose an arm and have probably lost weapons so you don't need those heat sinks anyway.

I think a small reduction in the survivability of the clan XL is needed with a corresponding buff (more on this afterwards). Small, because you don't have the option of swapping engines. What I thought would be easy to add into the game is that when you loose a clan XL side torso instead of further damage transferring to CT it transfers to the other side torso. The destroyed torso becomes less of a shield and the overall survivability goes down a small or moderate amount.

Then to balance that change out make CASE work properly! Right now IS can effectively use CASE with standard engines whilst clan do not have the option of using it with their XLs. So this is an advantage to IS in terms of building survivable 'mechs. Make CASE work properly with XL engines and now both clan and IS have the option of storing ammo more safely in a side torso.

In summary make changes that affect survivability because what is out of whack here is that clan XL are more or less in practical terms as survivable as IS standard with all of the benefits of an IS XL.

And Clan mechs do not have the option to mount standard engines. The big difference between Clan XL and IS XL is that Clan XL engines only put two crit points into the side toros, meaning when we lose a side torso, we are taking 2 of the required 3 engine hits to kill a mech.

Take an IS mech with a standard engine, give it a CT weapon, and it can still fight with both side torsos removed, a clan mech is dead with both side torsos gone.

Do you see where I'm going with this, or do you need me to hold your hand through this and explain it like I would to a toddler?

[dario03]

warner2, on 17 October 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Apologies if this has already been suggested / discussed.

It's true that one of the major benefits you get from the Clan XL is speed and free tonnage with no loss of survivability in practical terms.

It seems to me the gulf between running an IS XL and a clan XL is survivability. The balance change that was done recently (lose a clan XL side torso loose 2 engine heat sinks?) makes no sense to me. It doesn't close the gulf in survivability. Further it doesn't sound like a big deal for the heat efficiency because if you loose a side torso you lose an arm and have probably lost weapons so you don't need those heat sinks anyway.

I think a small reduction in the survivability of the clan XL is needed with a corresponding buff (more on this afterwards). Small, because you don't have the option of swapping engines. What I thought would be easy to add into the game is that when you loose a clan XL side torso instead of further damage transferring to CT it transfers to the other side torso. The destroyed torso becomes less of a shield and the overall survivability goes down a small or moderate amount.

Then to balance that change out make CASE work properly! Right now IS can effectively use CASE with standard engines whilst clan do not have the option of using it with their XLs. So this is an advantage to IS in terms of building survivable 'mechs. Make CASE work properly with XL engines and now both clan and IS have the option of storing ammo more safely in a side torso.

In summary make changes that affect survivability because what is out of whack here is that clan XL are more or less in practical terms as survivable as IS standard with all of the benefits of an IS XL.

The XL damage transfer seems pretty good.
But I am confused about the case part. I thought Clan ammo already came with free case which is one of their big advantages.

But yeah the IS quirk pass might be big enough to make this not matter. Though the Timber Wolf will still be extremely good since Tier 1 IS mechs don't get much, but unnerf to Victors should help.

[Kavoh]

LordKnightFandragon, on 17 October 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

neg, the IS are getting a heap of quirk buffs, so chill on the clan nerfs.....ffs lol. We keep up the Clan nerfs and they will be nothing more then inferior IS mechs....

Unfortunately welcome to what 90% of people who want nerfs (and give extreme examples). They don't look for a way to make it "balanced" in their eyes, they just try to chop a limb off so its "worse". There are some constructive ideas, but most go to far even then as they just want SOMETHING nerfed, and don't care what it is or does.

For example, 20% movement reduction on a DWF wont stop it from eating your face as you couldn't maneuver around it at 54 kph, what good is it gonna do you at 40~

[Elizander]

We can maybe go out of the box and instead of nerfing clan XLs further we just change IS XLs to make a mech shutdown for a few seconds if one ST is destroyed instead of killing it outright then make it like clans where it takes 2 ST kills to destroy. Maybe add the move speed penalty. Slow mech still better than dead mech.

An alternative is to slow down the mech death. Allow the mech to function after ST destruction for (x) seconds depending on their engine rating or just a fixed time. IS XL ST destruction means your mech dies 5-10 seconds after this happens.

The purist rage will be real though.

[Xarian]

Another "alternative" is to do nothing at all.

[divinedisclaimer]

Just reduce the damage bleed debuff from a destroyed side torso hit to the CT for clan mechs lowering their effective health by some small percentage only post-torso loss. They still have their advantage, they die faster though; easy to tweak in small increments.

This will make IS standard engines uniquely more durable than clan XL engines, which will still be more durable than IS XL engines, but only when the pilot still has an armor plate on at least one side to hide behind.

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 17 October 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[Ultimax]

Elizander, on 17 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

We can maybe go out of the box and instead of nerfing clan XLs further we just change IS XLs

Every IS pure brawler with a Standard is likely to have more armor in their STs and/or CTs once the quirk system is done with them.

Clan XLs need to be left alone, Clan nerfs need to be done with.

I have a lot of clan mechs and only a few of them have remained fun to even bother with.

[divinedisclaimer]

Ultimatum X, on 17 October 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Every IS pure brawler with a Standard is likely to have more armor in their STs and/or CTs once the quirk system is done with them.

Clan XLs need to be left alone, Clan nerfs need to be done with.

I have a lot of clan mechs and only a few of them have remained fun to even bother with.

Well, PGI has conditioned you into thinking every nerf has to be %33. If you hit a destroyed side torso, only X percent of that damage transfers to the CT.

Just dial that up by like 5%. The biggest strength of the T-wolf is it's speed. Because it's incredibly difficult to hit it's CT while twisting or moving at all, it seems to have much higher armor than it does, because you aren't getting CT hits. You're getting de-buffed side torso hits almost the entire time. Standard Stalker builds survive a really long time for this same reason, it has to do with the cone-nose hit boxes.

If you want parity the T-Wolf and similar clan mechs need less effective health. You cannot have the same damage weapon systems with the same or greater survivability moving 20kph faster as well and expect parity. The quirk pass is going to help IS pilots a lot, but it's a joke from a game design perspective. Individually buffing the mechs arbitrarily is going to let a lot of niche builds and play-styles fall through the cracks, which is going to dumb the game down even more.

Edited by divinedisclaimer, 17 October 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

Khobai, on 25 September 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Clan XLs should get the penalty of -10 heat dissipation when a side torso gets blown out. Because thats how they worked in tabletop and thats an easy thing to add to MWO.



Its called a Light Fusion engine. They start getting field tested in 3053. Its basically the IS equivalent of a Clan XL engine, but it weighs slightly more.

Light Fusion engines being added a few years early would help balance things out for IS.

Light Fusion Engines are only 75% of STD engine weight, unlike standard XL engines which are 50%. They weigh a looooot more for the benefit of only two engine crits per ST.

Could add XXL engnes and all their "5x more expensive than an XL engine of the same size" glory... >_>

[Col Jaime Wolf]

to the op

stop and no clan XL's are fine. i own both IS and clan mechs, by far IS mechs (only 3 clan mechs)

clan Xl's are not OP or unbalanced and when we get the speed reduction/loss of heatsinks it will actually be a NERF not balance but a nerf.

i can say from experience from piloting my nova summoner and timberwolf that your lucky if you get off even 1 more salvo once one of your torso's pop, heat or not you are simply so trashed at that point that your gonna hit the ground in short order anyway.

so plx stop your idea is bad and you should feel bad.