307 replies to this topic

[Damien Tokala]

Do you two realize you've been arguing for two hours?

[pwnface]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Futuretech in the 1980s, was technology that were passing today. Thats what I meant,

Isn't the battletech universe supposed to be waaaay in the future? How is it fair to arbitrarily say futuretech in the 1980s stops at the technology we have today? You don't think in 100 years we'll have gyros that are more efficient/accurate than the video I posted? You are completely cherry picking your points here...

[Destructicus]

Damien Tokala, on 17 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Do you two realize you've been arguing for two hours?

it's my day off and I'm waiting for wave 2 to go on sale

[pwnface]

Damien Tokala, on 17 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Do you two realize you've been arguing for two hours?

I'm okay with that as long as everyone can keep it civil

I think basically Krafty wants a tabletop adaption that I believe isn't unrealistic and/or won't be fun. At a fundamental level, we want completely different games.

Edit: I guess I'm 3. I only just joined in...

Edited by pwnface, 17 September 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[Damien Tokala]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

it's my day off and I'm waiting for wave 2 to go on sale

You couldn't just play the game instead?

[KraftySOT]

But lets recap:

* 100% adaptation to the TT is neither possible nor desirable.

I disagree.

* Poptarting is a problem but convergence isnt the way to fix it

Disagree

* Some changes made arent desireable but adhering to the TT isnt the way to fix them either..

Disagree

* Weapons in arms, considering "futuretech" could probably converge easily on a target

Granted. Ill certainly give you that, but I cant see how a Hunchbacks AC/20 converges on anything. It cant move. It just fires where it fires, you either get the gun on target, or you dont. The way it works now is that the shell magically leaves you barrel then adjusts itself inflight to hit where your crosshair is aiming.

* Clan XL engines in their current state might need a tiny penalty

I agree, but would say that they probably need a large penalty, and that other systems need to change, and their weapons need to be unnerfed.


Not alot of progress

Damien Tokala, on 17 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Do you two realize you've been arguing for two hours?

Yup just realized when my wife got home and wondered why I was furiously typing...oh **** its 7 oc...

I dont even want to know when my first post to this thread was.

Clearly we believe in our points of view. And seems to mostly be a matter of semantics.

His idea of 100% and mine probably arent the same, and we both think that some degree MORE of adherence to the TT will solve alot of the problems, and he also doesnt like some of the changes that were made.

Thats why we disagree so vehemently, because its easier to just leave a conversation if you completely disagree...but when you mostly agree other than the solution, it becomes quite heated.

Damien Tokala, on 17 September 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

You couldn't just play the game instead?

Thats what I meant to do like 4 hours ago...never logged on. Been arguing here the entire time.

Cant say im proud of that.

[Destructicus]

I'm just saying that a strict TT based game seems a lot less fun that you would think and arguing the realism of a video game is pointless

[KraftySOT]

pwnface, on 17 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Isn't the battletech universe supposed to be waaaay in the future? How is it fair to arbitrarily say futuretech in the 1980s stops at the technology we have today? You don't think in 100 years we'll have gyros that are more efficient/accurate than the video I posted? You are completely cherry picking your points here...

Fair point. Ill definitely concede you about arms and the gyros that could handle their movement.

Now like I said with say a Hunchband...I have no idea how you justify its ac20 converging or not just having a standard drop over distance like any other ballistic weapon. It cant move.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Cant say im proud of that.

Same here
I'm not proud of it either
hey
look at that
We agree on something

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

I'm just saying that a strict TT based game seems a lot less fun that you would think and arguing the realism of a video game is pointless

Completely disagree. All the most realistic games are the most fun and usually the most successful. That thing people say about " you wouldnt want total realism in a game " is just a buzz line. Its nothing more than fluff. Infact people want realism. Thats why games keep becoming more realistic.

On the same note, with all niche cult status IPs, be them a comic, music, movie, book, or video game, strict adherence to what gave them that status in the first place, is the fastest way to success.

Its like we went over before...its like youre giving spiderman an orange custom and making him able to breath fire.

No one wants that. The reason the spiderman movie from the 80s was terrible was the horrible plot and completely ignoring all the things in the comics. The reason the new ones were successful is that they just told the story the comics told in a movie. They changed as little as possible.

This is the age of the fanboy. Come over to the dark side and embrace it.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Same here
I'm not proud of it either
hey
look at that
We agree on something

Im sure we agree on many things, social, gaming, political, and otherwise...probably more than we disagree...but this is the internet and we dont know each other. So the one thing were arguing about becomes the biggest most important issue.

We disagree, its not hte end of the world.

And having played every mechwarrior related thing other than Mech Commander 2 and Mechwarrior Tactics...MY favorite titles are the ones that are closest to the TT. I obviously love megamek, Mercs, and MW3 (and the short lived 3025, which was probably the best) and really havent been impressed by anything since the Mech Commander hardpoint thing. I hate that it was first premiered in a game that was completely different than MW4, but they decided to take that piece....whhyyyy. It didnt change anything. Just pissed people off.

And I just learned that the closed beta here used to not have weapons groups...

Good lord all you lucky ******** who got to play a mechwarrior game with only chain fire and real alpha strikes.

[KraftySOT]

Ill grant you though that im sure theres some sacrifice that must be made to translate the TT to a video game...but man I just dont know what that would be given our timeline and the mechs and weapons we have. Maybe someone would have to do something about Arrow IVs or leg attacks by inf or some crazy thing...and clearly AP pods and MGs are really pretty useless


Could you imagine firing one round from your machine gun every 10 seconds? Probably not what they were abstracting there...

But im also saying that if that were like that, if your LL ML Gauss MG all took 10 seconds to fire and worked just like they did n the game, with FLD...id be ok with that. Id enjoy it slightly more than I enjoy this now.

[Damien Tokala]

Please shut up... Go kill each other in giant death machines

[KraftySOT]

Already in qeue...Im comin for yah
Destructicus!

[wanderer]

Fun fact: The "everything takes 10 seconds to fire" is only a single type of Battletech rules. Tournament, in part because it keeps things easier to manage during a game.

In truth, not only does weapon firing rates range from 1-4 shots per 10-second turn, you can even force early shots at the cost of additional heat and potential weapon damage. Good ol' Solaris VII rules, which also did things in 1/4 scale (2.5 second turns, smaller hexes) vs. standard Battletech scaling.

(No,MWO doesn't go with those rules either)

[KraftySOT]

Yeah solaris rules are neat. Ive gotten to play with them a few times. It would be cool to see a title based on them certainly.

Sure would be cool if some light pilots signed up so my Banshee can find a match

Edited by KraftySOT, 17 September 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[El Bandito]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

You wanna blow off one of those huge ST, force a shutdown, then take pot shots at an overheated mech and call it balance?
Then after all that, convince yourself that kill was fair?
If so I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

IS mech dies when one side of XL is destroyed. Just gonna point that out.

You gonna call that fair? Call it balance?

Edited by El Bandito, 17 September 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Destructicus]

El Bandito, on 17 September 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

IS mech dies when one side of XL is destroyed. Just gonna point that out.

You gonna call that fair? Call it balance?

when we're forced into XL engines
Most of my IS mechs run STD engines, it's my personal preference, so maybe my view is a little skewed.

[Josef Koba]

"I will repeat things over and over, saying yes it does or nope as a rebuttal, speak in platitudes, and devolve the discussion of a FPS-style video game that is based on the fictional game universe from a die-roll table top game into a comparative discussion on the viability of comic book movies, using the latter to justify massive reforms to the former."

The XL engine nerf is coming. Let's see what that does to this game balance everyone is seeking (in their own, "My way is the only way that should ever be considered" way) before we start throwing out more and more nerf ideas. The nerfing has been heavy in the past; let's see what some tweaks do first. With that said, I kill Clanners in my IS mech, other IS pilots in my IS mech, IS pilots with my Clan mechs, and other Clanners in my Clan mechs. I kill everything. Conversely, I've been killed by everything. I suspect that both trends will continue. I don't blame my deaths on "game balance" nor my successes on the OPness of my mechs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Posted this in another thread but going to post again here.

It isn't fair to Clan mech players to impose penalties on the use of XL engines simply because, unlike IS mechs, they cannot opt to mount a standard engine to avoid those penalties.

Now let me go a bit further and compromise a bit because obviously the Clan XL is an advantage so lets modify my previous statement a bit.

It isn't fair to Clan mech player to impose A LARGE penalty on the use of XL engines simply because, unlike IS mechs, they cannot opt to mount standard engine to avoid those penalties.

So to make it clear, sure give Clan mechs a penalty, maybe make them lose 1/3 of their engine mounted heat sinks or something that they well feel without ending up crippling them but unless you make it so that Clan mechs can opt to have the same versatility as IS mechs, you have to compromise with how severe the penalty is.

Lets face it, if you "Forced" an Atlas or Stalker to use XL engines, they would be complete jokes. For them and many other builds(many Cataphracts, Jaggers, Banshees etc), being able to mount a standard and totally avoid the penalties of an XL is the key to them being effective or in some cases, even usable.

Anyway, again I am not going to claim that the Clan XL doesn't offer and advantage but it also cannot be turned in to a constant disadvantage that only the IS mechs can opt out of either.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 17 September 2014 - 08:22 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

If I can make some slottage with a light engine instead of standard on my current IS heavy, oh yes I know I'm grabbing one.