307 replies to this topic

[Gierling]

Listen Destructicus, I'm just pointing out how its going to be.

The clan mechs are going to get a penalty for losing a torso and that penalty will Involve heat. Anything that gives you more heat gives you more shutdowns.

What do you think when you hear "Heat Penalty", mechanically how do you suppose that is going to work?

Your going to get an extra x% of heat when you lose a torso, where is that heat gonna go, why shouldn't you shutdown if that x% of heat puts you over 100%?

[Metus regem]

K0M3D14N, on 17 September 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Krafty, just give it up. A table-top game decided by dicerolls DOES NOT translate to a real-time action game. It doesn't. It does not. Mechwarrior titles have always been about pilot skill and having some heinous RNG system of "well the game decided I miss and he hits so I'm dead" would have ensured Mechwarrior Online never even had a snowball's chance in hell at working because that's not Mechwarrior. Tabletop? Sure. Mechwarrior? No.

As things stand right now, the Inner Sphere can DEFINITELY win fights against the Clans. The issue we're running into is similar to the issue that the IS ran into in the fluff- the majority of IS pilots are trying to fight the Clans the same way they'd fight other IS pilots and it does not work. The Clans win the long-range pokefest that MWO had been for a long time. The only way to really engage them is to use chokepoints to limit their firepower, get in tight, and use the fact that the IS has more upfront burst than the Clans do and run cooler.

Not to mention liberal use of support units like tanks, arty and air support...

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

"Ignore the core rules, lets have Bruce Wayne act like a ****, ruin the jokers storyline, throw in comical characters, ignore Gordon, and cast the worst Robin in history....ITLL BE A BLOCK BUSTER!"

Just :facepalm:

theres a fundamental difference between video games and film
Much in the same way there is a fundamental difference between a realtime game and TT

[K0M3D14N]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

theres a fundamental difference between video games and film
Much in the same way there is a fundamental difference between a realtime game and TT

This. A thousand times, this.

[KraftySOT]

And honestly Mech 2 is the closest to the lore, and also the most succesful.

Just like Tim Burtons Batman.

So it wasnt the TT. It was still pretty good.

But the reason this even exists, is because the TT fans existed, and there were a few PC titles before Mech 2 that did well in that demographic, so they made a larger budget game to attract those people who they knew would buy it, and get new fans, which they did.

Ever since then its been a gradual slide towards obscurity because it keeps straying farther away from the demographic that birthed it into this world in the first place.

The Xmen movies arent popular because they ignored the comics "for monies" they got the monies, because they DIDNT ignore the comics.

[Metus regem]

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Listen Destructicus, I'm just pointing out how its going to be.

The clan mechs are going to get a penalty for losing a torso and that penalty will Involve heat. Anything that gives you more heat gives you more shutdowns.

What do you think when you hear "Heat Penalty", mechanically how do you suppose that is going to work?

Your going to get an extra x% of heat when you lose a torso, where is that heat gonna go, why shouldn't you shutdown if that x% of heat puts you over 100%?

I don't mind getting a penalty of constantly generating more heat (like TT) or a speed penalty for it (TT gave it to you through extra heat), I'll still run my Clan mechs proudly, but getting an auto shut down, that's what annoys the hell out of me.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

theres a fundamental difference between video games and film
Much in the same way there is a fundamental difference between a realtime game and TT

I completely disagree. Case in point. GTA5. Valve. HL2.

All of these companies took the same approach to their games, that movie directors take to their movies. Another is everyones favorite Star Citizen.

If you cant see the cross over between the mediums, youre blind.

Its actually not that different in the recording business either. Once you establish a 'sound' straying for that sound, loses you fans. Returning to that sound, gets them back. Its very simple.

[VanillaG]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

Nope. It should reduce their speed, and increase their heat. Like the TT

TT only applies a heat penalty for engine crits. Overheating introduces speed penalities so it is possible to have no speed penalties if all you did was run and not fire your weapons and it is also possible to have speed penalties without engine crits.

Losing an Clan XL side torso should only introduce a heat penalty. If you want to introduce a speed penalty based on heat it needs to be applied to all mechs and be based solely on where you are in your heat scale.

For example, once you go over 80% heat your mech gets a minimum 5 second 10% speed debuff and once you go over 90% you get 25% speed debuff. Heat scale would be checked every second and if you are over the threshold your 5 seconds is pushed out. You 5 second timer runs out when you stay below the threshold for at least 5 seconds.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

And honestly Mech 2 is the closest to the lore, and also the most succesful.

Just like Tim Burtons Batman.

So it wasnt the TT. It was still pretty good.

But the reason this even exists, is because the TT fans existed, and there were a few PC titles before Mech 2 that did well in that demographic, so they made a larger budget game to attract those people who they knew would buy it, and get new fans, which they did.

Ever since then its been a gradual slide towards obscurity because it keeps straying farther away from the demographic that birthed it into this world in the first place.

The Xmen movies arent popular because they ignored the comics "for monies" they got the monies, because they DIDNT ignore the comics.

God you use the worst examples
Lemme try to put this in a way you'd understand since you're so crazy for movies
The Lord of the rings was split into to three admittedly long movies
They're good movies, but they didn't adhere to the books at every point and not every character and element of the books was included in the film.
If they did, those movies would have still been good, but way too long, complicated and boring for the casual movie goer.
These things don't translate the way you think they do.

[KraftySOT]

Aerosmith ffs.

The Rolling Stones.

Any long running entertainment product has cult fans. Cult fans keep these things alive. Disappointing them and straying from the original content, is almost never successful, in any art.

Also Picasso.

Its not like this isnt without its comparisons.

And whats the worst that could happen by following the TT to the letter and adding systems that accounts for the few deficiencies, that are totally choices.

This game wouldnt be any less popular, if half shots didnt converge, clan mechs were more powerful, IS mechs were less powerful but the most customizable, XL engines blew up IS mechs and almost blew up Clan mechs, and the lore and system was intact.

There just wouldnt be any balance discussion going on because everything has its place. The complaints would be the maps given to use each weapon in its correct environment.

The further you stray from the TT, the worse this game is going to do. Its already evident through past events. Ghost heat. 3PV.

[Scratx]

I think people missed the point I was trying to make. Oh, well. Whatever. I don't feel like arguing.

And finally, if Russ said clan XL's are going to get a direct heat penalty instead of losing heat dissipation/efficiency, state your source. All I saw from him is that he considers not losing heat sinks when part of the engine goes bye bye a bug. Which naturally implies it's going to be fixed.

[KraftySOT]

VanillaG, on 17 September 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

TT only applies a heat penalty for engine crits. Overheating introduces speed penalities so it is possible to have no speed penalties if all you did was run and not fire your weapons and it is also possible to have speed penalties without engine crits.

Losing an Clan XL side torso should only introduce a heat penalty. If you want to introduce a speed penalty based on heat it needs to be applied to all mechs and be based solely on where you are in your heat scale.

For example, once you go over 80% heat your mech gets a minimum 5 second 10% speed debuff and once you go over 90% you get 25% speed debuff. Heat scale would be checked every second and if you are over the threshold your 5 seconds is pushed out. You 5 second timer runs out when you stay below the threshold for at least 5 seconds.

It applies a movement penalty as well, though possibly thats been added since TacOps...I play megamek with all the options enabled unless im playing the 3025 campaign.

Which though to be fair, ive seen myself get movement penalties from engine hits in that too. Though I cant find the specific rule.

[Destructicus]

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Listen Destructicus, I'm just pointing out how its going to be.

The clan mechs are going to get a penalty for losing a torso and that penalty will Involve heat. Anything that gives you more heat gives you more shutdowns.

What do you think when you hear "Heat Penalty", mechanically how do you suppose that is going to work?

Your going to get an extra x% of heat when you lose a torso, where is that heat gonna go, why shouldn't you shutdown if that x% of heat puts you over 100%?

Because that's a little too much?
At what point is shooting at a shut down target because you were able to take out it's ST balance?
What you don't want to admit is that those shut downs are inevitable.

[KraftySOT]

Youre right in CBT, its just 5 heat.

Though in a land of no DHS...thats insanely bad.

In tacops its a movement penalty. Though that one has difference between the ICEs and fusion/fission engines.

Though in CBT there are no XL engines or clans either. Im trying to find when the movement penalty was first added...Maxtech?

[Lootee]

Do it, put 'THIS ISN'T BATTLETECH' up against 'THIS IS PRIVATEER/WING COMMANDER' and 'THIS IS ELITE'. See which one comes out on top.

CR and DB understand who their audience is and isn't afraid to acknowledge their games' heritage. But what do those 2 know about developing epic games anyway? Elite's 30yr Anniversary is coming up soon. How about emulating a winner for a change?

Edited by Lootee, 17 September 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Aerosmith ffs.

The Rolling Stones.

Any long running entertainment product has cult fans. Cult fans keep these things alive. Disappointing them and straying from the original content, is almost never successful, in any art.

Also Picasso.

Its not like this isnt without its comparisons.

And whats the worst that could happen by following the TT to the letter and adding systems that accounts for the few deficiencies, that are totally choices.

This game wouldnt be any less popular, if half shots didnt converge, clan mechs were more powerful, IS mechs were less powerful but the most customizable, XL engines blew up IS mechs and almost blew up Clan mechs, and the lore and system was intact.

There just wouldnt be any balance discussion going on because everything has its place. The complaints would be the maps given to use each weapon in its correct environment.

The further you stray from the TT, the worse this game is going to do. Its already evident through past events. Ghost heat. 3PV.

What was I just saying about fundamental differences?

[Gierling]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Because that's a little too much?
At what point is shooting at a shut down target because you were able to take out it's ST balance?
What you don't want to admit is that those shut downs are inevitable.

Well then your actually arguing against a heat penalty at all.

If there is a heat penalty there will be shutdowns because of it. You cant just toss X Percentage of heat on a mech, it has to deal with it. If you generate an extra 30% heat just for standing around with no side torso then what happens when you lose that torso when you are already at 98% heat?

There is no way to add a heat penalty that doesn't shut you down if you were running high heat before hand.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

I completely disagree. Case in point. GTA5. Valve. HL2.

Now you're talking about something completely different
Those are video games
GTA and Half life aren't based off movies or table top games.

[ski2060]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Because that's a little too much?
At what point is shooting at a shut down target because you were able to take out it's ST balance?
What you don't want to admit is that those shut downs are inevitable.

And your point is? Learn to shoot less after you lose a side torso in a Clan mech. Those of us in IS mechs will just continue to spectate after we get ONE SHOT by a Dire wolf taking out one of our side torsos.

No one at all is saying to auto shutdown. If you ride your heat scale that high already, that's your fault. Learn to keep it lower.

Would you rather PGI nerfed Clan weapons even more?

Edited by ski2060, 17 September 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Destructicus]

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well then your actually arguing against a heat penalty at all.

If there is a heat penalty there will be shutdowns because of it. You cant just toss X Percentage of heat on a mech, it has to deal with it. If you generate an extra 30% heat just for standing around with no side torso then what happens when you lose that torso when you are already at 98% heat?

There is no way to add a heat penalty that doesn't shut you down if you were running high heat before hand.

I never argued against a heat penalty, I'm arguing against the massive heat spike you're recommending when Clans lose a ST